101 — Nourishing Joy: How General Mills Infuses Happiness into Food with Matt Thell

Lenny: 00:00:00

Hello, everybody. It’s Lenny Murphy with another edition of the Greenbook Podcast. Thank you so much—taking time out of your busy day to spend it with myself and my guest. And today, we are honored to have Matt Thell, the Senior Strategy Manager of Global Marketing and Organization from General Mills. Matt, welcome.

Matt: 00:00:29

Thank you, Mr. Lenny. I’m excited to chat and tell a few stories.

Lenny: 00:00:33

You know, that’s what the podcast format is for, right, is to be storytellers, so hopefully we can make it interesting for our listeners. I suspect we will. So, before we dive in—because I know we have a real topic, a project that you’ve been working on that we want to spend some time on. Why don’t you tell your listeners more about you, your roll in General Mills, and then we can take it from here.

Matt: 00:00:55

Yeah. So I’ve been working my entire adult career at General Mills, and that’s been, like, 23 years, so that’s, I don’t know, a little odd. I never expected that to be the case, but here I am. It’s been great. For about, I’d say, three-quarters of this work, I’ve been part of a unique group. It’s called the iSquad. It was called the iSquad back when having an “I” in front of your name was maybe a little bit cooler than it would be now. It’s also about 20 years old or so. But it is a—it’s an internal strategic consultancy. So, if you think about, like, if you had, like, one of the big three, like McKinsey or Bain or Boston, and they had a baby with, like, IDEO, which is, like, all about, like, kind of, like, innovation stuff. Like, that’s kind of, like, where we come out—so, like, business strategy and innovation strategy all smashed together.

Lenny: 00:01:38

Very cool. Yeah. Over the years, I’ve known a lot of folks at General Mills—one of the leaders in innovation and research for a long time, and so I suspect that you’ve had some, over that course of that career, lots of interactions with that team as well.

Matt: 00:01:52

Yeah. It’s such a good set of people. A lot of diverse groups kind of, like, all milling about and swimming in, like, the innovation ecosystem, so it’s a really fun set of support structures that just really drive a bunch of agile behavior and some cool innovation, yeah.

Lenny: 00:02:09

Yeah. Yeah. Last story, there was—years ago, there was the “group of five,” and it was the leaders from General Mills, Microsoft, Coke, P&G—and who was the other one? I want to say Kraft possibly. They would meet quarterly, and they would kind of plot the course. It was, like, the illuminati of research.

Matt: 00:02:32

[laugh].

Lenny: 00:02:32

Right? So [laugh]… On, “All right. Here’s where things are going to go.” And often, it would manifest that with investment into early-stage companies that are in the space, and I just always thought that was really cool. I was let into the—well, not a conspiracy. I was going to play off the illuminati thing, but it was actually fun that Stan Ellington from Coke told about it and just thought, “That’s really neat.” So…

Matt: 00:02:58

Yeah. I’d like to think I could steer things in similar ways, but I say we just kind of—we talk about how we—we just orbit the giant hairball, right? Like, we’re kind of—

Lenny: 00:03:06

[laugh].

Matt: 00:03:06

We’re of the system, but not really in the system, so it gives us a little bit of flexibility to kind of work with all the other different groups and—not necessarily in a puppet master way, but in a very kind of, like, a helpful guide kind of way.

Lenny: 00:03:19

Good. So maybe we should have a conversation about, like, you know, the world economic forum of marketing and research type of group, the Bilderbergs—anyway [laugh]…

Matt: 00:03:28

Yeah. No, there’s no Davos thing going on here with my group.

Lenny: 00:03:31

[laugh].

Matt: 00:03:31

We hang out in a lovely corporate building that has nice coffee.

Lenny: 00:03:36

Okay. Well, that is a good perk, especially for a company like General Mills, to make sure that you—I would expect you to have good coffee, good snacks, and things of that nature. All right. So, on that note, let’s talk about the Nourishing Joy project, because this—

Matt: 00:03:51

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:03:52

You know, I was reading the notes and thought, “All right. That sounds really cool.” And a little bit of background for our listeners, this concept of ‘joy’ has really popped up since 2020 in various and sundry fashions. Right? I’ve seen lots of organizations kind of embracing this concept that ‘By God, we just need more joy in the world.’ And [laugh] doing different things to kind of inculcate that concept. I was not aware of the Nourishing Joy initiative from General Mills, so tell us about that.

Matt: 00:04:19

Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. So, when I’ve chatted with other people, I said, you know, it is both the combination of kind of, like, the easiest and the hardest thing that I’ve worked on. And it’s the easiest because, like, when you put a meeting on someone’s calendar that says, like, “let’s talk about joy,” like, no one turns you down. Right? Like, everyone is more than happy to take a little bit of a break out of, like, their daily whatever they are—running the business, right, and P&L—like, to chat with you about joy. So that’s, like, the easy part. The hard part is, like, when you look at, like, some of these what I’ll say are, like, positive emotion topics, there’s a lot of—especially if you are the people who are digging into it, a lot of, I’d say, honor and feeling of, like, subject mastery or, like, competency. So, like, you think you know more than you do. Right? Because everyone experiences joy. Everyone eats food. And it just feels like a really familiar topic. And I think it makes it challenging because you have to kind of take a step back and forget all the stuff that you know in order to look at it in a more structured way.

Lenny: 00:05:16

Okay. That makes sense. I think that—well, the whole concept of anything around behavior and emotion and kind of factoring that into business continues to be a, I think, an evolutionary process, where we’re trying to—

Matt: 00:05:27

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:05:27

—that framework of “Wait. How does this fit?” So how did you approach getting people on board with that, when there was so many disparate maybe assumptions going in?

Matt: 00:05:37

Yeah. I mean, everyone was on board because when you take a look at, like, the stuff that we have dug into the past, right—like, we are really good at understanding health and wellness. We’re really good at understanding satiety and energy. We’re really good at understanding convenience. But, when you actually, like, look at the numbers, it’s something, like, 46 percent of food dollars are spent on, like, taste and experience. So everything else falls into that ‘other,’ so you’re, like, “Oh, there’s all these other, like, whatever, six categories that I named off.” I’m like, “Okay. That’s about 50 percent.” The other 50 percent is this thing, like, around joy. And so you’re like, “Guess what? You know, we have not dug into this in a way that is comparable to those other things.” And it’s such a big space that, like, why wouldn’t we try and, like, create some sort of strategy around it? And especially, too, like, this one. This one was specifically focused on adults. Right? Because it’s very easy to go to, “Oh, like, kid joy, like, kind of, like, fun and novelty and whimsy and things like that.” But, like, when you think about kind of, like, “Okay. What drives joy for adults when it comes to food?” You know, that’s a little bit different. And so like, “Okay. Like, there’s a big space, and there’s a big opportunity, and we haven’t really given it the due that it deserves.”

Lenny: 00:06:53

Okay. So that makes perfect sense in thinking General Mills—my default, and it’s my childhood memories, is the cereal lines. Right?

Matt: 00:07:02

Mm-hm. Yeah.

Lenny: 00:07:04

And certainly joy that I would have Saturday morning. You know [laugh]?

Matt: 00:07:09

Sitting in front of the TV.

Lenny: 00:07:11

Sitting in front of the TV and cartoons.

Matt: 00:07:11

Cereal…

Lenny: 00:07:11

Yeah.

Matt: 00:07:12

Yep. Cereal is the—usually the first thing that kids can make for themselves that’s considered a meal, so it’s always one of the—you know, it’s an anchor in people’s mind because not only is it something that’s fun to eat, but it’s one of that first transitions into, like, self-sufficiency.

Lenny: 00:07:29

Yep. Sense of accomplishment. “No, mom. I’ve got it.”

Matt: 00:07:31

Mm-hm

Lenny: 00:07:32

You know? So [laugh]…

Matt: 00:07:33

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:07:35

That’s neat. Okay. We won’t go down the nostalgia pathway anymore, but I’m experiencing joy just from that piece of the conversation. So tell us about it. Tell us about the project. Right? Was this something that was baked in cross-organization and “Look. We’re going to lean into this concept because we know that this is such a huge driver of choice”? And how was that manifested and implemented within the organization?

Matt: 00:07:56

Yeah. I mean, we had these different pillars, these spaces of interest. Some of them aligned, the ones that I talked about previously. And joy itself was declared as a pillar, and so there were multiple groups looking at it across multiple different fields. Right? You know, we got very technical and scientific folks, and there are functional things you can do to products that deliver more joy. We have people who are consumer insights folks who, like, really understand, you know, kind of, like, the consumer and things like that. So, yeah, I’d say it was a multi-prong approach to how it was being tackled. We were one of the tools in the toolbelt that got to take a swing at it.

Lenny: 00:08:33

Any surprising insights? Things and just—as you’re going through this process like, “Wow. Now that was really, really interesting.”

Matt: 00:08:41

I mean, there’s lots of interesting—I, like—it’s a complex space, like, when you think about kind of, like, how joy manifests in food. So I’ll give you an example. Okay. So, if you’re thinking about, let’s say, like, Cheetos. All right? Have you eaten Cheetos? Do you know Cheetos?

Lenny: 00:08:56

Oh, yeah. Hence why I’m doing the low carb diet now.

Matt: 00:08:59

Ah…

Lenny: 00:08:59

I’ve eaten more than my fair share of Cheetos, yes, so [laugh]…

Matt: 00:09:03

All right. So let’s see if this works out. What would you think is the number one consumer complaint when it comes to people eating Cheetos?

Lenny: 00:09:11

Orange fingers.

Matt: 00:09:12

Orange fingers. Right. Messy fingers. So that is the number one complaint, hands down, of, you know, all the stuff that gets on people’s fingers. So then I’ll say—and hopefully I’m setting you up right here—what do you think is the one thing Fritos should never change about Cheetos?

Lenny: 00:09:26

The cheesy flavor?

Matt: 00:09:28

The cheesy flavor and the messy fingers.

Lenny: 00:09:30

And the messy fingers.

Matt: 00:09:31

And so…

Lenny: 00:09:31

[laugh].

Matt: 00:09:32

Yes.

Lenny: 00:09:32

There’s the tension.

Matt: 00:09:33

Because basically what—yes, so this is the tension. So, when you think about—when you talk to people about it, they’re like, “Oh.” Like, you show them pictures of people with, like, all the cheese on their fingers, and then they, like, cringe. Like, it’s a visceral reaction. Like, you know, “Ugh.” And they talk about, like, it’s messy, and it’s convenient and all that kind of stuff. And I think people actually, like, at one point in time, like, tried to, like, do a, like, you know, a non-sticky cheese thing—because there are very smart food scientist—but the thing is, like, when it comes to food joy, like, you take that away, what your brain is missing, it’s, like, it’s not signaling that cheesy experience. You’re not getting the enjoyment of, like, licking it off your fingers. Like, you have your rational brain that’s telling you, “Oh, this is inconvenient. This is annoying,” things like that. But, like, you like it. And that’s the difficulty when it comes to some of this, like, food joy stuff. There is this whole system one, system two thing, like, lizard brain, thoughtful brain. And so, like, sometimes, as you’re, like, talking to people about food joy, it’s really difficult to kind of, like, separate that rational from the irrational and what part is actually, like, the driver of the joy of the food.

Lenny: 00:10:38

Sure. Well, this—we’re talking about Cheetos, and since I’m doing the low carb thing, the challenge of a diet like that, at least for me, is the lack of joy. Truly.

Matt: 00:10:50

Mm-hm

Lenny: 00:10:50

I haven’t even said that until probably now. But it’s like, “God. This gets—this is boing.” I mean, I love meat. I love cheese. Right? That type of diet works for us in that standpoint. But what I miss is crunch.

Matt: 00:11:00

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:11:01

So the snacks—I miss those components. And anything baked of any nature, right, the consistency, it sucks with low carb stuff. You know, it’s great there’s this whole other category. I’m sure you guys have a sub-category [laugh] of low carb snacks as well, but they’re just not the same as that—eating a bag of Cheetos. Right? And…

Matt: 00:11:21

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:11:22

So I’ll throw this out for you guys. That is probably—we did find the—I’m sorry. I forgot the brand name, so forgive me. But it is the brand of Cheetos that are baked and somewhat organic that General Mills makes.

Matt: 00:11:35

Okay.

Lenny: 00:11:35

And that was a “By God, if I’m going to do this. I need access to something that’s close to that experience that makes me happy while I’m eating or else it’s just a chore.”

Matt: 00:11:48

Yeah. Okay. So here’s another example I can tell you about that. So, like, this was—you know, as we talk about kind of, like, the tension of what we were trying to figure out, like, with this joy thing. The direction at which you come at something drastically affects your output. Right? So, if you think about, like, joy, a lot of time, as developers and strategists and things like that, you think about kind of, like, what’s the problem to solve? Like, what is the problem that you’re trying to get after. And the difficulty with all this is joy is not a problem. Right? Like, I’m just cut straight in there. Like, joy is not a problem. You’re trying to make it a problem, and it’s horrible. Like, things go completely awry. But you do kind of have this tension of kind of, like—we call it the bright side and the shadow side. Right? And depending on which direction you come at it, you get different results. So, if we’re thinking about your low carb thing, you could say that the shadow side there is deprivation. Right? Like, you have been deprived of something that you love. You love the Cheetos. And if I were to say, “Okay. That’s a thing.” Right? And let’s say I’m playing around with ice cream, and I start with that focus of deprivation, I might come up with something like Halo Top. Right? People who are on a specific diet or whatever, they really want ice cream. They feel deprived. Well, now they can have Halo Top, and that’s good. Right? And so that’s coming at something from the point of, like, that problem deprivation. Let’s say I flip it, and I say, “Okay. What’s the opposite of that?” Abundance. Right? So let’s say—now, I’m still thinking about ice cream, and I start with that focus of abundance, I might come up with something like the Ben & Jerry’s Core that’s got the center of fudge or caramel or things like that. It’s kind of two sides of the coin, but depending—and it’s the same category. But depending on where you start, you come up with something completely different.

Lenny: 00:13:32

You know, my wife lectures me often with that very same concept of, “Honey, it’s not that you’re deprived. Just think of all these new options that you have,” and with a different level of enjoyment. Right? It’s a new experience to enjoy. I don’t do well with that thinking personally because I’m narcissistic and overly self-indulgent. So [laugh]—in many ways. But…

Matt: 00:13:53

People want what they want. Right? And it’s really hard to change someone’s frame of reference of how they approach life and they approach food.

Lenny: 00:14:00

So, as a food producer obviously concerned about health and wellness and those things as well, as you’re going through this process of thinking about joy, was there also kind of this awareness of responsibility of, “Look. We need to make products that bring people joy but also are healthy and fulfill that,” because we can’t just live off Cheetos, as much as we may want to [laugh]. Right? So what’s that intersection been like in terms of the brand? How has that impacted the company in kind of thinking through your core mission and even your product lines?

Matt: 00:14:30

The nice thing about, like, the structure that we created and what we did is that it can be overlayed onto anything in the sense of—like, we were thinking about this in the beginning, and we were like, “Okay. What do we scope? What do we keep in? What do we keep out?” But, like, ultimately, like, any aspect of food, depending on the approach you’re taking, you’re seeking joy in some way. So, you know, if I’m saying the thing about, like, Halo Top. Halo Top is great, and Halo Top is a great solution to something, and that works. And that is a good way to deliver joy in someone who is kind of, like, dealing in that, like, weight loss space or calorie conscious or whatever. And so we were very mindful in kind of, like, our approach of creating these spaces and these areas for teams to dig into that it could be, like I said, overlayed onto anything. Right? Like, if you are a brand like Progressive soup, which is, you know, just kind of a good straightforward soup, like, I can help you with that, and I can tell you how to deliver joy within soup. Right? I can understand the levers of delight that are at your disposal to, like, you know, make it more interactive, make it more comforting, make it last longer, things like that. Or, you know, if I’m working with something like Gushers, you know, which is purely about fun and weird and craziness, like, I can overly it on that too. And I can come up with things that are absurd, or I can create the antithesis of Gushers and, like, put the gush on the outside and things like that. So it’s versatile enough that if you come to me with like a, “This is kind of like what we’re thinking.” We’re like, “Great. We have an approach for you.”

Lenny: 00:16:01

Very, very neat. Yeah. So I’m not sure if it’s still current, but within—I know from P&G for a long time, they standardized the hierarchy of needs. Right? And everything is through that lens. The reports that were delivered—you know, this was the component in how does this translate into the hierarchy of needs? So it sounds like you’ve kind of build the hierarchy of joy as a framework across the organization. “And this is the lens what we’re going to look at, at every aspect of the business.” Is that an overstatement? Or is that…

Matt: 00:16:29

I mean, I would say I’m not going to give myself that much credit.

Lenny: 00:16:32

Okay.

Matt: 00:16:32

You know, we are a small group that does big-strategy work, and it’s something that we kind of—you know, we treat it, again, like a consultancy and as a—if, like, a team needs help and we want to work with them, we do. But this is not a over-arching company edict or structure. We’re like a jobs theory group. Like, we make jobs, maps, and things like that. So, like, I can help you think about things like familiarity and presence and exploration and fun, like, all those different, like, areas, but it is not, like, a guiding document for the company.

Lenny: 00:17:04

Okay. Got it.

Matt: 00:17:05

Something I can ascribe to get some day. But, right now, we’re just doing yeoman’s work.

Lenny: 00:17:10

Okay. [laugh] Well, but I think it’s really impactful, yeoman’s work. Again, Lord knows we need more joy in the world, so I think that’s a—it’s a really cool principle, so I hope it gets that way. So…

Matt: 00:17:22

Yeah. Hey… dare to dream.

Lenny: 00:17:23

Yeah. Absolutely. All right. So you named this project internally ‘Riley.’

Matt: 00:17:28

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:17:28

After the main character of Inside Out. Tell us about that. How did that influence your thinking? Was that just a contextual framework that was useful early on? Or was there other pieces of that that you thought, “Yeah. This is really appropriate”?

Matt: 00:17:42

It worked well in the sense of—as we were just trying to—you know, you try and get something that’s short. You try and get something, for me, that’s easy to spell. You try and get something that’s pithy that has, like, a good connection back. And maybe there’s, like, a degree or two of separation, all those cleaver things that you try and do with project names. Like, the whole thing here is, like, you know, when you think about Inside Out, so you think about that, there’s this conflict in there where it’s between Joy and Sadness. Right? So Joy is—

Lenny: 00:18:06

I sobbed in that.

Matt: 00:18:07

Okay. Yeah.

Lenny: 00:18:08

Man, when she left in that movie, it’s like, “Oh, my God. Riley, no.”

Matt: 00:18:13

Oh my God. And Bing Bong. Okay. Yeah. So let’s not go there.

Lenny: 00:18:16

And Bing Bong. I know [laugh].

Matt: 00:18:18

Yeah. Yeah. So the whole part of it is, like, Joy is very much wanting to protect Riley from Sadness. Right? Like, that’s kind of, like, part of the thrust of it. But, ultimately, Joy comes to terms with the fact that: though, like, undiluted sadness—so, like, what I’ll call the shadow side—is destructive, right, and doesn’t actually work, the emotion of sadness gives birth to things like empathy and compassion. And so it was this idea of balance.

Lenny: 00:18:45

Yep.

Matt: 00:18:46

You know, this bright side, shadow side type thing of, you know, problem, opportunity, that really kind of intrigued us. And I do think—you know, I think Disney does an amazing job when it comes to feature things like that. And just so happened that Inside Out was perfectly suited for what we were looking at.

Lenny: 00:19:01

Yeah. Yeah. That was—a huge fan of the Pixar stuff. And they’ve had some misfires later, but that’s a whole other conversation. But Inside Out was truly a fantastic move. And, as a father, you know, watching it with my kids and like, “All right. This is like therapy session now.” So…

Matt: 00:19:16

Yeah. I mean, here’s the thing too. Like, I always use a lot of things like that, especially Disney, when talking to teams about, like, empathy. Like, empathy is a—it’s always this lofty goal that we’re trying to get to. We don’t realize that it’s kind of a step process, and empathy is, like, the best thing. But like, “Oh, we want to get empathy within our people for the consumer.” But, like, with Disney, it’s great because you can say, like, empathy exists there. Because, like, if you cry during a Disney movie, you are feeling an emotion that you are not actually in. And so there you go. There’s the best example I can give for you about, like, how empathy actually happens.

Lenny: 00:19:51

Yeah. We’ll move on from that because I’m actually tearing up still thinking about Bing Bong.

Matt: 00:19:55

Mm-hm.

Lenny: 00:19:56

Yeah. So [laugh]… Can you talk about the research that you did? What was that like?

Matt: 00:20:01

We have a process that’s called the [I-Three 00:20:02] process. It stands for immersion, interaction, and then, like, idea creation. The whole thing is you get super smart on a topic. Like, you talk to all the experts. You find out all the information, you know, whether it’s mainstream media or other type of stuff. Interaction is, like—you know, if that’s getting your head smart, it’s getting your heart smart. Right? This the building empathy part. And we say, “Only once you put those two together, can you actually—do you earn the right to then come up with ideas.” So basically—or to come up with a strategy or to come up with framework or whatever it is. So we did lots of immersion. We got really smart. I’d say the thing that was kind of interesting about this from an interaction standpoint is, you know, we did more kind of, like, emotional inquiry. And so any time we have, like, these big, heavy topics, oftentimes it goes negative. Right? Like, you have, like, things like heart health and weight loss and things that kind of, like, have some really tough, for lack of a better term, negative emotions associate. But this time, we’re like, “You know what? Given all that complexity that I talked about before with kind of, like, joy,” we’re like, “I think that would work for this too.” So I’d say it’s a level deeper of consumer interaction in that, you know, there are more trained professionals in the psychology field. People are put in a situation where they feel very comfortable. They ask them just to kind of, like, you know, think about kind of, like, situational stuff. There’s closing of these eyes. And I think you can extract some really good nuggets that helped us kind of, like, put the different pieces together.

Lenny: 00:21:25

All right. So let’s think about kind of outcomes now. Right?

Matt: 00:21:28

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:21:28

The joy of shareholders.

Matt: 00:21:30

Hmm…

Lenny: 00:21:31

So [laugh]… Can you share some insight into how this has impacted this framework of, you know, brand loyalty or brand lift and, you know, sales? Have you seen measurable components that way?

Matt: 00:21:43

I can give a couple examples. What I’ll say is the thing about our team is the point of seeing results is often quite distanced from the point of kind of, like, where we come in and help a front-end strategy group. And so we’re waiting on a lot of stuff. But, like, okay. So we have an internal group that has a bunch of, like, co-founders. Right? So they are small teams of two and three that act like start-ups within the company. And one of the things that we’re tasked with doing is helping them, like, kind of, like, figure out the places to start. And so a couple of the teams are starting in the space of joy. So some are in their infancy. But, like, one recently came out with a product called—like, it’s called, like Plate of Plenty. It’s an extender for ground meat. And so, like, if you were, like, you know, starting a pound of ground meat, this would give you, like, a pound and half of flavoring and different things. But that was coming at the joy from the sense of, like, what the parent is able to put on the table of being something, you know, to bring the family together to have this kind of connections. And, oftentimes, it’s over these types of community meal type things, like, you know, like, tacos or other stuff like that. And so this is the ability to kind of, like, give them more there. So, within kind of, like, the co-founders, that’s one example of a product that came out of it. I’d say on the brand-side, we’ve done a bunch of work with our fruit, our diff-fruit, which is, like, Gusher and Fruit By the Foot and Fruit Roll-Ups. And we’ve seen some fun things come out of it as far as, like, their news and how they’ve responded to things. I think they do an excellent job when it comes to joy. The whole ice cream and Fruit Roll-Up TikTok trend worked out quite well on our side, and the team did an amazing job of kind of capitalizing on the joy that comes from putting ice cream in there and getting kind of, like, that crunchy bite and kind of, like, getting it out to folks.

Lenny: 00:23:28

Yeah. My kids have done some of those things. And [laugh] they were certainly joyful while doing it. So now how about—you know, earlier on, we touched on nostalgia—you know, sit in front of the TV eating a bowl of cereal. Has that been a component in targeting older—old-fogies like me [laugh]?

Matt: 00:23:46

I mean, nostalgia… nostalgia was an interesting animal to dig into with joy. Because I think what happens is the thing that people often go to initially with nostalgia is this idea of, like, happy childhood associations. Right? That’s immediately where we went to, kind of like the cereal bowl in front. So, like, I want to live the joy that I felt when life was, like, carefree in a sense. The interesting thing about nostalgia, as we dug into it, is that, you know, it’s multi-faceted. Right? There are different ways in. So, like, there is reminiscent memories. Right? These are—like, I want to recreate feelings from enjoyable past experiences. Right? I went and I took a vacation ten years ago. It was in a tropical place. I don’t usually keep coconut rum at my house, but now I’m at a bar, and I got this drink, and it’s got a pineapple—and, “Oh, man. Like, that’s great.” Like, that’s nostalgic. Or, like, the other one [laugh] is, like, I call it ‘reminiscent past.’ So I want to experience, like, an idealized time or place that maybe seems better or more interesting than the present. And the we way we joke about this is, like, people are like, “Oh, 1940s, they were so great.” And we’re like, “Oh, the 1940s had war and polio.”

Lenny: 00:24:57

[laugh].

Matt: 00:24:57

Like, it wasn’t really great [laugh]. But, you know, in the moment, life is hard. Like I said, there’s all those things. Like, you know, if the good side is familiarity and presence and exploration and fun, like, the bad side is instability and innovation and monotony and gravity. Like, those are heavy things. So, like, sometimes it’s not that bad to kind of, like, project onto the past. And so, yeah, I mean, we’ve done tons of nostalgic things. You can see, like, retro cereal boxes coming out. We relaunched Dunkaroos. You know, everyone loves Dunkaroos. You can see it, actually. You know, not even us. Like, the number of ‘90s songs that are showing up in commercials now is just amazing. So, like, nostalgia, and nostalgia plays big.

Lenny: 00:25:37

Yeah. It’s [laugh]—I think you’ll appreciate this. I was just chatting with the other day and about the—growing up, right, in the ‘80s. And, like, you know how you’d—you’d jump off the ramp of this box, and you’d fall. And you’re just nothing but skinned knees and elbows. “Yeah, that was great. Wasn’t it?” And [laugh] it’s—well, at the time, that wasn’t great. That really sucked. I, you know, [laugh]…

Matt: 00:25:59

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:26:00

But…

Matt: 00:26:00

Okay. So here’s one of my favorite things with that. A while back, I got, like, a set of DVDs. Right? So we’re talking a while back—like, a physical set of DVDs of old Sesame Street episodes. And on it, it specifically has a warning and said, “For entertainment purposes only. Not for educational use.”

Lenny: 00:26:20

[laugh].

Matt: 00:26:20

Because what we consider these days to be—like, the purpose of, like, you know, kids are riding bicycles without helmets. I don’t know. Oscar is smoking a cigarette.

Lenny: 00:26:27

[laugh].

Matt: 00:26:27

Like, something like that—like, things that would not make it into today. And so it’s interesting. Again, you talk about, like, “Oh, I skinned my knee, and it’s great.” Like, no, that, like, really hurt.

Lenny: 00:26:37

Yeah [laugh].

Matt: 00:26:38

Like, there are things that, like, in the past maybe just don’t necessarily translate the same way now.

Lenny: 00:26:42

Although I did—we did buy Schoolhouse Rock.

Matt: 00:26:45

Oh, God. It’s so good.

Lenny: 00:26:47

For—yes. But for the kids. Like…

Matt: 00:26:49

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:26:49

You know, okay, some of this stuff is a little outdated. But, you know, by God, I learned a lot, you know, of—I watched Schoolhouse Rock, and you are too. So [laugh]…

Matt: 00:26:59

Conjunction junction what’s your function?

Lenny: 00:27:00

Conjunction junction. I’m just—

Matt: 00:27:02

Hooking up words and phrases and clauses.

Lenny: 00:27:03

Absolutely. “I’m just bill…” [laugh] you know?

Matt: 00:27:08

It’s catchy, and it sticks with you.

Lenny: 00:27:09

Yeah. It really does. It really does. So anyway [laugh]… we could go off in all types of places from that. So steer back to the pragmatic components. This sounds like just a really great project, and we’ve been kind of playing off of this, but is there anything else that our audience here is—to help inspire them from your learnings that I haven’t asked about?

Matt: 00:27:32

Do you want to talk joy? Do you want to talk something else? What’s your preference here?

Lenny: 00:27:36

I think whatever—you know, we don’t go into these, at least I don’t, with an agenda per se. But often I have that experience of, “Oh, I wish I had talked about that while I had the opportunity and didn’t.” So let’s not go through that. So is there something that you think, “You know, I’m talking to a big audience of researchers and marketers of, you know, brand supplier side. I want to make sure that they get this key takeaway from this conversation.” And whatever that is…

Matt: 00:28:03

Yeah. Let’s end it with a story. Shall we?

Lenny: 00:28:06

Do it.

Matt: 00:28:06

Okay. So this was some research that was done in the past, so it wasn’t exactly part of this project. But as I was kind of, like, reflecting upon things that we’ve done, like, this factored in quite fully. So was doing kind of, like, the full snacking exploration in India. Right? So we were going to all parts of the company and seeing what people snack on and trying to understand similarities, differences. And we were doing some stuff in the south, and I was talking to three younger girls. It was in their house. We were hanging out in one of their rooms. My is, like, hanging out by the door as we’re there. And, you know, we’re talking about one—their favorite snacks. Like, what is your favorite snack? One of them talked about, like, this fried potato snack from this vendor that’s, like, right by the house. And, you know, it’s, you know, “If I could, like, it’d be the only snack I’d have. Like, I love it. It's heaven.” And she goes on, and I’m taking notes, and like, this language is gold. Like, I mean, it’s just—like, just everything she says is, like, fantastic. And then the interviewer—because the interview was happening in, like, Tamil or something like that—uh, asked her like, “You know, well, what if you couldn’t have those snacks? What if you could only have snakes that your mom makes? You know, what if it’s that?” And she basically—she just, like, stops dead, and she’s like, “That would be hell.”

Lenny: 00:29:16

[laugh].

Matt: 00:29:17

She’s like, “I would not want to eat anything else.” And, like, she says it with, like, such vehemence and conviction that, like, I—like, I stopped taking note. Like, I stopped taking notes. And now the mom is giving me the stink-eye because, like, I’m not even doing the interview, but I’m the one who is kind of, like, instigating this. And so, while this is all happening, this young girl, who is, like, nine, sees that I’m not writing, gets my attention like, kind of, like, [tapping sound] kind of does one of those, makes intense eye contact, points at the paper, in English says like, “Note it down.”

Lenny: 00:29:46

[laugh].

Matt: 00:29:47

Like, note the—like, it was—it was super to her in that moment that I, like, recognized this vast difference between, like, the food she absolutely loves and, like, everything else. So, like, my thing there was, like, you know, food is, like, something that we do every day. And, like, it doesn’t—you know, oftentimes, we don’t give it much thought. But, like, the act of eating and food is, like, one of the greatest vehicles for, like, experiencing joy. So, like, that thing there, it’s repeatable. Like, it’s something everyone can do. And so, like, everyone should just give themselves a little bit of joy when it comes to food.

Lenny: 00:30:22

That’s a great story. And I—you’re a good storyteller, Matt.

Matt: 00:30:26

Thank you.

Lenny: 00:30:26

The stink-eye from the part, that was great [laugh].

Matt: 00:30:28

Yeah. Yeah. It wasn’t in the moment, but it’s great—

Lenny: 00:30:31

[laugh].

Matt: 00:30:31

—great upon reflection.

Lenny: 00:30:34

[laugh] Oh, man. That is funny [laugh]. And it’s not helping my sticking to my low carb because now my first thought is, “Yeah. I deserve joy. I deserve a burger and fries, by God, and some Cheetos.” So… [sigh] anyway [laugh]… That is great. Matt, really, it’s been a joyful conversation. I’ve really enjoyed just laughing about this and—but it—a great topic as well. So I hope that more companies can do this. Have you ever thought about, you know, writing a book or, you know, doing an internal podcast within General Mills talking about some of these learnings and to incorporate them? Because I think you’d be a natural.

Matt: 00:31:16

That’s very kind. I’d like to say that our group is full of kind of, like, storytellers and dot connecters and all that, so it’s a great space that a lot of us have found our way into. No podcasts, no books as of yet, but we will continue to sew the seeds within General Mills.

Lenny: 00:31:32

Okay. Well, if you decide you want to extend that to a wider audience, let us know.

Matt: 00:31:37

Very much. Thank you.

Lenny: 00:31:38

Okay. All right. Final question, anything else that you want to bring up that we didn’t bring up?

Matt: 00:31:44

I mean, a new thing we’re digging into, like things that we’re kind of playing around with—looking at impulse currently. So, you know, it’s an interesting topic when you think about it from a food and non-food standpoint. Like, everyone knows all the stories about, like, casinos and how they kind of, like, do their best to either get you to act on an impulse and suppress, you know, rational thought. We got a stuff. You know, you think about, like, first moment of truth and how to get some of the tension in four feet and four seconds. But, right now, I’m kind of playing around with that seeing, like, what does it mean for people to act on? And what are the barriers? What are the triggers? Like, you know, I’m a lazy person. I go into a convenience store. I don’t want to walk back and find the ice cream. So, like, what do we do about that? Or, like, sometimes a door—I got a door. I don’t want to open a door. Like, that’s too much work.

Lenny: 00:32:28

[laugh].

Matt: 00:32:28

So it’s been fun kind of digging into the psychology of how people think about triggers and barriers to either acting upon an instinct or not.

Lenny: 00:32:39

Yeah. Sure. Well, all the, you know, product display and—you know, I’m often explaining to my kids, “Now, why is the candy aisle right here in the grocery store?” “Like, so you’ll get it.”

Matt: 00:32:47

Yeah.

Lenny: 00:32:47

I mean, that’s exactly [laugh]—it’s an impulse buy.

Matt: 00:32:50

Yeah. Or why is it in the back? So they lead you through everything else—

Lenny: 00:32:53

Right.

Matt: 00:32:53

—to get thing you want.

Lenny: 00:32:54

Right. Yeah. The whole other conversation on, you know, the fascinating components of product placement and design et cetera, et cetera. So we’ll save that for the next time. So…

Matt: 00:33:07

Sounds good.

Lenny: 00:33:08

As you dive more into impulse, let’s come back and you can tell us about what you’ve learned about impulse control or lack thereof.

Matt: 00:33:15

[unintelligible 00:33:15].

Lenny: 00:33:16

Okay. All right. Where can people find you?

Matt: 00:33:19

I don’t know if I’m embarrassed or proud to say basically nowhere. Like, I am [laugh]…

Lenny: 00:33:24

[laugh].

Matt: 00:33:24

I’m one of those to have, like, no social media presence at all. Like, I’m—I think I’m just too easily distracted, and I would never emerge from my hole. I guess LinkedIn. Right? Everyone has LinkedIn. That’s a thing. So…

Lenny: 00:33:36

Yep.

Matt: 00:33:36

Sure. That’s where you can find me.

Lenny: 00:33:39

Okay [laugh]. Yeah. And speaking of impulse control then. Right? So you…

Matt: 00:33:44

Yeah. Exactly. I know my limits.

Lenny: 00:33:45

Yeah. I’m right there with you. I am, gosh, coming up on four years Facebook sober.

Matt: 00:33:52

Ah…

Lenny: 00:33:52

And, yeah—but, boy, that monkey was on my back for a long time. So [laugh]…

Matt: 00:33:58

It’s hard. It’s gets you.

Lenny: 00:34:00

Yeah. It does. It does. So, anyway, on that note, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. This has been a great conversation. And best of luck to everything that you’re working on now.

Matt: 00:34:11

Thanks. It’s been fun. I appreciate it.

Lenny: 00:34:13

All right. Great. And a big shout-out to our producer, Natalie; our editor, Big Bad Audio; our sponsors; and, of course, our listeners. Because, without you, Matt and I wouldn’t have had the excuse to sit and chat. We may have connected, but probably not. So, you know, this is—this was great. Thank you for giving us this opportunity. And that’s it for this edition of the Greenbook Podcast. Talk to you soon. Bye-bye.

GB 104 - Matt Thell

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