Episode 114
114 — Humanizing Data: Joyce Chuinkam’s Approach to Empathy and Authenticity in Market Research
In this episode of the Greenbook Podcast, host Lenny Murphy welcomes Joyce Chuinkam, Senior Research Manager at Talk Shoppe and a 2024 Greenbook Future List Honoree, to discuss her diverse background and experiences in market research. Joyce shares her journey from politics to entertainment, legal, and now market research, highlighting her extensive travel and its influence on her professional approach. The conversation delves into the importance of authenticity in brand messaging, especially for minority groups and GenZ, and explores the challenges and nuances of conducting global research. Join us for a deep dive into fostering brand loyalty, navigating the impact of technology in research, and leveraging the subtle power of influencing consumer behavior for a more inclusive future.
You can reach out to Joyce on LinkedIn.
Many thanks to Joyce for being our guest. Thanks also to our producer, Natalie Pusch; and our editor, Big Bad Audio.
Transcript
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Greenbook Podcast. I am Lenny Murphy, one of your hosts. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to spend it with me and my guest, and today my guest is Joyce Chuinkam. Did I get that right, Joyce?
Joyce:It’s fine.
Lenny:Nailed it. Kind of close. All right.
Joyce:[laugh].
Lenny:[laugh] And Joyce is the senior research manager at Talk Shoppe, so welcome, Joyce.
Joyce:Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Lenny:It’s great to have you. I appreciate it. So rather than me talk about your bio and your background, you could probably do it better. So why don’t you tell our audience a little bit about yourself, and then we can go where the conversation takes us.
Joyce:Totally. Yeah. So my name is Joyce Chuinkam. I moved to Houston about a year ago from LA, and I’ve moved around quite a bit. So that’s a key part of, I guess, my background is just lots of travel. Houston is the 12th city I’ve lived in in my life across three continents. So here I am.
Lenny:Wow.
Joyce:Yeah. So, like you mentioned, I’m a senior research manager at Talk Shoppe, or have been for three years. My professional background is also quite varied, from politics to entertainment to legal and now market research. So I’m excited to talk [laugh].
Lenny:[laugh] Well, there’s a lot that we can cover with that background. And I’ve got to point that Houston, boy, the storms last week—hopefully you were not impacted by those.
Joyce:Thank you for even mentioning that. Yeah, no, I was. I didn’t have power for two days and water for a day, but everything is fine now. Yeah. So some friends and I were talking about how it seems like the rest of the world didn’t pay as much attention to what was happening. It was pretty wild. But, yeah...
Lenny:It was—I saw videos and oh, my God, right? I mean, [laugh] there was some scary stuff. So...
Joyce:Yeah. Yeah, my first tornado, so there’s that.
Lenny:So in all your travels, you had not lived in a tornado-centric area?
Joyce:No. I’ve done earthquakes now, and I’ve done a tornado. That’s about it, and I hope that’s it [laugh].
Lenny:[laugh] Well, I hope so. Although, it is hurricane season, and it’s Houston. So... hate to be that bearer of bad news.
Joyce:That’s good---bearer of bad news. But [laugh]...
Lenny:[laugh] But you should be safe from volcanoes, mud slides, all those type of things. So, anyway, all right [laugh].
Joyce:[laugh].
Lenny:We digress. So tell us about, one, you’re a 2024 Future List Honoree, so congratulations on that.
Joyce:Thank you.
Lenny:That is fantastic. Tell us about that. You know, how did you become an Honoree? What’s most exciting about this for you?
Joyce:The whole process was really exciting. The whole thing is exciting. So a colleague of mine, who is the head of growth and learning at Talk Shoppe, had put in an application last year and suggested that work on it, and it’s really cool to see how it evolved into what it is right now, to even getting to be an Honoree. One of the highlight in the whole experience, in addition to speaking at the IIEX Conference, obviously, was meeting other Honorees. I think one of the biggest part of the conference, to me, was having the lunch for the Honorees for us to just sit and chat and get to know each other and hear—like, we spoke about so many things in relation to the stages of our careers that we’re in, whether it’s imposter syndrome or other things that different people were experiencing, especially being listed as an Honoree. That was really cool to just have other people in the industry. So Talk Shoppe is remote, and so having in-person connections with other people, even at other companies, makes a huge difference knowing that, like, you’re kind of going through this market research journey together. Of course, other things that came of being an Honoree were also really nice, like attending the conference, speaking at the conference, and even this is very cool. Because, again, being remote sometimes you’re just, like, in your bubble, in your world, doing work for clients. They get it, and you don’t know if it ever makes a difference or not, and you just keep pushing. Or you might feel experience or think different things that you only know in your head, so you’re not sure if other people are sharing that experience. So the whole thing has been really nice to just, like, talk more about what you do and meet other people doing the same thing. So it’s been great.
Lenny:Good. And, you know, I agree that the human connection—I mean, I look forward to podcasts, you know, to these conversations.
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:Like, yeah, I get to talk to somebody [laugh].
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:[laugh] So...
Joyce:Like, Lenny, let me tell you all about my day, my week, without power last week. I could [laugh] tell you all the things, yeah.
Lenny:There we go. That’s fine. We can get into that.
Joyce:[laugh].
Lenny:There is one occasion that I cried during a podcast during the conversation.
Joyce:Really?
Lenny:Yes, really.
Joyce:Like, were you being interviewed, or was—
Lenny:No. No, no. The topic was empathy with Rob Volpe, and it just was an emotional conversation that—very empathetic. So...
Joyce:Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Lenny:We’ll go wherever we need to, Joyce. It’s fine.
Joyce:Love that. Love that [laugh].
Lenny:[laugh] So you’ve got this varied background. You’ve moved all over the place. You’ve done lots of things. How did you get to market research? You know, tell us a little bit about that.
Joyce:Totally. That feels like ages ago, but for context—so I did a dual-master’s degree in—that started in 2014. It was one year at the London School of Economics, one year at University of Southern California. And at LSC, it was a Master of Science, so it was quant heavy and all that stuff. It was media and communications, the dual master’s. And so, then when I came to USC, it was very—it was less theoretical, more hands-on. So one of the things we had to do—well, we had, like, to all have internships, and we had to all—you know, just actually be in the working world. So for my dissertation, I did qual. I did interviews, and my dissertation was called, like, “Don’t put Fox in the Box,” and it was about, like, the fox—not Fox News, but “Fox,” like, the channel, like broadcasting with, like, Family Guy and all those shows. And so interviewing people about it, my dissertation’s supervisor suggested market research. So she was like, “Hey... have you ever thought of this thing? Like, you might be good at it?” And I was like, “Hmm... I don’t really know if that’s a real job.” Like, I just—I didn’t really understand it, you know?
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:[laugh] I was like, oh, what is that?
Lenny:People get paid to do this? What?
Joyce:What else do they besides just talk all day? So she invited me to part of the innovation lab at USC, which was the Annenberg Innovation Lab.
Lenny:Mm-hm
Joyce:Which is basically just innovating for client, and one of our clients was a big entertainment company, and we did a project for them that they really appreciated the end result. And so she had me consider it further. So after graduation, she sent me the contact information of a former student of hers, who was based in the UK but worked at LRW, which is now Material. And, long story short, I was going to the UK that summer anyway. I met up with him, had a great chat, submitted an application, got the job offer. I started off at LRW and then pivoted briefly to the legal world. So I had legal experience. I went back to doing, like, marketing and operations at a law firm for a couple years, and then switched back into market research at Talk Shoppe, yeah.
Lenny:Very, very cool. So did you meet Todd Cunningham at the Annenberg School—was a professor there that—
Joyce:Mm-mm.
Lenny:No?
Joyce:No, no.
Lenny:Okay. Just curious. Todd is a good guy—but, anyways, a professor there.
Joyce:Huh. Yeah, no.
Lenny:Okay. Never mind [laugh].
Joyce:[laugh].
Lenny:Our audience doesn’t see the video. You may see me looking around. It’s like, oh, yeah, Todd.
Joyce:Yeah, yeah, yeah [laugh].
Lenny:So I just—the—
Joyce:Do you know what Todd taught at USC?
Lenny:I will tell you.
Joyce:Okay.
Lenny:So hold on. I’m looking at Todd’s LinkedIn to make sure what he is doing now. He is the founding director of the Media Impact Project at the Annenberg School. It’s a Norman Lear Center at the University of Southern California Annenberg School. So that is what he is, is leading with pioneering new global media measurement capability in community practice. So...
Joyce:Interesting.
Lenny:Yeah. Anyway.
Joyce:Yeah. The global media piece—because that’s what I was doing there, so maybe it was after my time.
Lenny:Yeah, it could be.
Joyce:But very cool.
Lenny:And LRW is certainly a great company to get immersed and get the foundation. So...
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:Big fans of them for a long time—good friends. So. . .
Joyce:Nice. Yeah. I will forever be grateful to that experience that I had there. It’s a—start my market research career for sure.
Lenny:Yeah. No, absolutely. So what was the thing that made you—you left. You went and did legal, but then you came back.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:So what was that draw that got you back here?
Joyce:So I started at Talk Shoppe as a freelancer about three years ago and—or a little over, I guess—and just working on the stuff that I was working on was so fun that I was like, “I can do this as a hobby. I don’t even need to get paid.”
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:Obviously, I have bills to pay. But, my God, it’s fun. The team of people that I was working with, as well, at Talk Shoppe were just so smart and so good at different things, whether it was moderating or it was, like, strategizing and organizing things or operations or whatever was needed for the project. They’re all just really good at it, and it just didn’t feel like work at all. So that’s kind of where I knew, okay, I want to do this full-time because I’m being exposed to so many different brands and companies, so many different industries, taking it from so many different angles. And I think just the projects I had touched on at LRW were more, like, traditional market research projects. There’s a brand or a product, and then these are the steps. But, when I was freelancing for Talk Shoppe, especially during that time, there were just really interesting very, like, human projects about identity, about diversity. Like, they were just really cool. It felt like you’re making a bigger impact than, like, a brand’s bottom line, which is always still important, but it felt like it had, like, two ends of a result, where it served both the consumer and the brand and, really, the world—not to be corny—but, like, the world at-large in a very unique way. So that’s kind of why I was just like, “I have to do this full-time.” And even thinking about identity and diversity and things like that, it’s not just for the sake of like, “Oh, yeah. You know, we did this project for, like, marginalized people. That was really cool.” It’s more about, like, when you think of the bigger picture of representation and what that means, it all fed into why I went to grad school in the first place, where it’s, like, taking a million steps back. So my first job out of undergrad was working on the Obama campaign in 2012. In that campaign, when I started—I was a poli sci major. I thought I was going to go into politics, run for office. When I realized how much he used social media and celebrity culture for his campaign to win that election—because I moved to Colorado for it because Colorado was a swing state. And watching him win that, like watching people come to events that we were organizing because Angela Bassett or Laurence Fishburne would be there, as opposed to, like, “Oh, the first Black mayor of Denver will be there.” As you’re like, “All right. Cool,” but, like, four people show up. So it really signaled to me that the media has the power of influence beyond anything else. So then fast forward, you know, going to study media communication, and then fast forward working market research, and now at Talk Shoppe; working with brands in this capacity, what it means to me, is basically you’re influencing the media. It’s just an ad, but that’s part of the culture. That’s what shapes society. That’s what gets ingrained in little girls brains as to what beauty standards are—whatever is. So, to me, being able to work on that, and not only give a voice to these marginalized groups but essentially give them the mic—like, you’re not speaking on their behalf. You’re just listening to what they have to say, and letting them tell the story that they would like to see or that they value seeing. Yes, the end goal is for a brand to make a dollar. But, socially, these are the things that seep into our subconscious that, to me, was way more impactful than the other stuff I was doing. That’s long answer long [laugh].
Lenny:That’s a great answer. And thank you for that depth. You know, I—I don’t—I don’t know if I’ve ever even said this publicly, but I will say it now in this conversation. The [laugh]—it’s not a—oh, I’m not going to cry or anything.
Joyce:[laugh].
Lenny:The—or maybe I will, but the—I think that our industry is one of the most powerful and influential in the world.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:You think through everything—our job is to sell more stuff, right?
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:To change behavior to sell more stuff. And that stuff is a message, a campaign, an idea, as much as it is a product. And if you, you know, translate that into, you know, like, the nudge units that now exist in every government and an NGO—I mean, those are the same things that we do, just applied in a very different way. And so I love that lens that—what I hear is you embracing. We have power in influence.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:You know, we are the keepers of how to change the world because we are the ones who say do—say this thing. Do this thing, you know, and it will have this effect on the population. And to be able to do that and represent, you know, folks that maybe have not always been represented or been heard, that’s amazingly powerful. So...
Joyce:I agree. For sure. And I think, like, what’s really cool, slash, interesting about what we do is that, like, for the rest of the world who is outside of the industry, it’s such a subconscious thing that we do. It’s almost like we’re speaking to people’s brains without them realizing. So—and that’s why it’s even more important. Like, the power we have is so subtle that it has to be used wisely.
Lenny:Yes.
Joyce:As Uncle Ben told Spiderman, you know, “With great power comes great responsibility,” situation.
Lenny:Yes.
Joyce:And so we have had projects at Talk Shoppe where—you know, most projects, obviously, you just—you say what it is. Here’s what we found. Do with it what you will. We’ve also had a few where it’s been like this is not the vibe. Like, you don’t want to put this out for the sake of your brand and for the sake of how people reacted to this in focus groups.
Lenny:Yep.
Joyce:Like, steer clear of this. So I do think what—we have some of that responsibility. We can’t always—obviously, it’s not our stuff. We’re not the clients. But it’s also really cool because we also, like, shed light to whatever world the client is living in to kind of, like, open up what’s going on with the respondents or just, you know, the consumers in general in their world. Because, yeah, there are some things that are common sense, but there are also a lot of things that you just don’t know you don’t know. So it’s also really cool that we have the power to bridge that gap and give perspective.
Lenny:Yeah. Absolutely. And I love the Spiderman reference, the idea of—
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:—you know, we need to use our powers for good.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:And there are ethical frameworks, you know, to function within that sometimes get overlooked, I think. And, you know, everybody aligns to what they think is important in their lives and what they want to support. That’s fine. But doing it in a way that is ethical—so I know of—I probably can’t say the name—but a significant—a CO of a significant player in our industry that pioneered kind of behavioral science in research. And they were approached to have a consulting offering around a specific political issue, and they said, “No. You know, this isn’t right. This doesn’t feel right to do this.”
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:And that was just a—when, you know, when you shared that with me of just—you know, yes, we have a responsibility to try and do good.
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:And use these powers, that influence, that subtle influence that you reference just to do the right thing. Anyway, so you have specifically focused on developing methods for getting insights from minority groups on sensitive subjects, right? I think that’s been one of the areas that you’ve kind of pioneered. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
Joyce:Yeah. I think that’s something that’s kind of come up with how much research we do with these groups over time. And so one of the things that we always talk about is just, like, how to make the respondents comfortable around sensitive subject matter, and it ties into empathy that we were just talking about earlier, but it also ties into just like—in relation to empathy, meeting people where they’re at. So an example would be a couple months ago—I didn’t do this, but my colleague, who is brilliant, came up with the idea of since we wanted to talk to new parents, instead of trying to get them on focus groups or, you know, interviews and—they just had a baby. How about we do an online community so that they can get to it when they get to it type of thing? And just something minor like that makes a huge impact on the study itself and the quality of data that you get because people can focus on whatever. And, you know, they can work on it while they are on their phones instead of sitting at a computer and all of that. So it’s been really cool just to work with people who come up with ways to meet respondents where they’re at. We know, like, if it’s going to be a sensitive topic, this would be better as an IDI versus a focus group. Or we’ve been talking as a company to figure out, like, who should moderate what based on how the respondent might be able to open up and communicate and share their story. One thing I will say, though, is that sometimes with these groups in particular, if we’re doing a focus group, for example, it might start off appearing maybe more casual or laid back than typical. And that’s typically intentional on our end because we do want everyone to feel comfortable, everyone to quickly identify what we have in common or what we don’t, so that you don’t feel ‘othered’ by what we don’t have in common, and then go deeper into the conversation. So sometimes it is to the benefit of the data that we start more casual so everyone is more comfortable in opening up. When I got into market research, I was trained as—like, the moderator is a fly on the wall. Like, basically, if you’re in person, you’re almost wearing all black. You’re not sharing anything about who you are and what your story is. You’re just there for answers. And, as I’ve progressed in my career, I’m learning—I don’t know if it’s a shift in society. I don’t know if it’s just different companies. But I’m learning more that perhaps there is a bit of room to share a snapshot of yourself, even, like, what city you’re calling from, for example. I never say that in my interviews. But watching my colleagues do that, it’s like, oh, this seems more relatable. Like, “Oh, you’re down the street,” or “Are you experiencing the storm there as well,” you know, things like that. So that’s also something that I am learning at this stage in my career to feed into that methodology of dealing with sensitive topics and getting respondents to open up, yeah.
Lenny:Yeah. I agree. I think that we are in the business, ultimately—and especially in the era of AI, we are in the business in building engagement with consumers so they will talk to us. And then, ultimately, we are the keepers of the ‘why,’ right?
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:And to get to that, we have to have some human elements, some interaction, and I think that the—you know, the ubiquity of information that is emerging now: who, what, when, where, how—that’s going to be easy to gather and easier to go as we go, right?
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:To synthesize that information.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:But they ‘why’ will be important, the what we don’t know yet. And to—those questions are going to require us to engage with people in a very different way. The era of the clinical scientist researcher I think is rapidly coming to an end.
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:That will mostly just be supplanted by the ultimate clinical scientist of AI [laugh], right?
Joyce:Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and at the conference they even had—they—during the innovation—like, the pitch competition thing, you know, they had people working on all kinds of AI things and doing almost—moderating, almost—you know, close enough, not quite—and if that’s—
Lenny:It’s not quite there yet. It’s [laugh]...
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:But it’s close.
Joyce:I don’t [laugh]—I personally don’t think it could ever get there, but the caveat to that would be that, like, us the humans kind of also need to pivot. To your point, even with me, speaking for myself, just changing my approach a little bit. Because, if I am staying in this clinical route, then that’s easily replaceable by AI. But, if you humanize your approach a little bit, there’s no way to replicate that. So, yeah...
Lenny:So at IIEX, you presented “Cracking the Code. How to foster brand loyalty among Black and GenZ consumers.”
Joyce:Yes.
Lenny:And you had mentioned that timing is an issue with Black consumers, and that GenZ care about individuality and community. Now, those things—back to what we were just talking about—makes me thing that there is that human element, that understanding.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:So kind of build off of that. Since I wasn’t there, unfortunately. I didn’t hear your whole talk. I wish I had been. For the audience who wasn’t there, kind of build on those ideas that we’ve been already kind of building towards already.
Joyce:Totally. So the biggest takeaway is authenticity, which is quite the buzz word, but we got to break it down a little bit at the talk, right? So both audiences are seeking authenticity from brands. There are different pillars to authenticity, but they kind of—it’s like the—both audiences have the same pillars, but they mean different things to the different audiences. So, for example, when we talk about timing, for the Black audience, it means “are you just showing me things during Black History month? Are you putting something together specifically for February, and then I never hear anything else from you the rest of the year?” The reason that’s important is because it shows authenticity. Does this brand genuinely care about me as a human and this issue that my community is facing, or do you just have set up like clockwork an easy, you know, reminder to check something off the list, and then, whatever happens in the news is not really your problem? Similarly—and the same can go for the LGBTQIA community, et cetera, right? There are different groups—or Hispanic Heritage month. Like, there are different groups of people that timing really matters. And similarly, for GenZ where timing there—because we’ll talk about identities and all of that in a second. But because they have so many identities, the timing is not only in regards to those things of their overlapping identities, but also in regards to is this brand showing up as a pioneer or, you know, standing on the front line of the issues that matter to me, or are they taking a back seat until things get really hot, and then they put out a statement, and then they say something? So the timing is also—like, how proactive are you about the things I care about versus how comfortable are you just sitting back and waiting for everything to blow over—and just when things are affecting the communities I care about? And this is across, like, so many social and political issues, whether it’s the environment or it’s Palestine or it’s Black Lives Matter. Like, there are a ton of things. But it’s just something for brands to be aware of that your lack of a statement is a statement for a lot of things. And people are paying attention. In most cases, I will say, though, that is not, like, the sole driving factor. So, like, if you need a pair of jeans, you need a pair of jeans. You’re not going to boycott some jeans—most people won’t boycott some jeans because they haven’t heard a statement. But, when they are in the position to have options, which competitors always present options for consumers, then that is something they factor in because—
Lenny:Sure.
Joyce:—they want to know that the brands are authentic in what they say they believe in.
Lenny:Right.
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:Or even, you know, overkill. I mean, I remember—let’s see if you can relate to this. And during 2020, right, spring of 2020.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:It’s like, “Oh, my God, if I hear one more commercial saying ‘We’re all in this together,’” right?
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:With the—you know, it’s like, stop. No. I’m done with this message that every brand, you know, every company—I understand why they were doing it, but it was overkill. It wasn’t authentic.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:It did not come across authentic. It came across as this is—you feel like, you know, somebody told you, you have to give out this message right now. And the reality is I don’t—I don’t care about your opinion about this, you know?
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:Can I get your product easily? That’s all that really matters.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:So, at that point in time—so it—maybe that’s not the best example, but it comes to me. But is that the flip side, right, of the awareness of, you know, look, you can go—if by going overboard, appearing too, too authentic, too empathetic, you know, you actually reveal that you’re just totally full of crap, and it pushes people the other direction?
Joyce:Yeah. And that’s a good point because I remember we did some groups at the time testing—someone had given—I can’t remember if it was, like, stemware showing or something for a luxury brand, and someone in the group specifically said, “This is not believable.” It’s like, “Why is it not believable?” It’s like, “A, when you look at their track record, they haven’t been putting out statements like this or standing by any of this in the past, and I guarantee you five years from now they won’t be saying this.” Well, funny enough, a couple of weeks ago, I went on the brand’s website to see if they still had all the diverse characters that they had during that time or whatever, and it was back to business as usual. It was—there was nothing there. So it wasn’t even five years. It’s, like, you know, three years later, and here we are. So, yes, like, the overkill is a thing, and people, especially GenZ who is very savvy, but people in general are aware of that. And so they also—with the timing, they also monitor over time. So, like, the timing is when you’re speaking out on something, but also, like, watching you over the course of X amount of time if you’re consistent with what you’re putting out or if it was a one and done because that was the thing to do at the time.
Lenny:Yeah. Now, so, you mentioned the—in your education, et cetera, et cetera, more of a, like, quant, you know, science background, but talking to you, though, it sounds—and I think I’ve had a similar journey—more qual now. I identify as more, you know—it’s [laugh] a part of my identity.
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:More on the qualitative side than on the quantitative side.
Joyce:A hundred percent [laugh].
Lenny:Yeah?
Joyce:Yeah, no, I don’t do any quant whatsoever. SPSS killed me in grad school.
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:I’m not interested [laugh].
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:Yeah, no. Qual all day.
Lenny:Yeah.
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:And is that that—you know, so it goes back to my theory on where I think the industry is shifting, now, right, is process is being automated more and more, et cetera, et cetera, including in analysis. And the data and the findings are incredibly interesting. You know, I dive into those things all day long. But the implications and the outcomes and the nuance is what really drives me going forward, right? It’s like curiosity to really understand the ‘why.’ And setting aside kind of non-conscious measurement, and yes, we can do quantitative, you know, understanding of people’s emotional drivers, et cetera, et cetera, but that’s still—there’s still missing context there.
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:And that context is what is most fascinating, I think. What do you think about that?
Joyce:I agree. I agree. I think that anything taken just at face value—well, obviously, I’m biased because I’m in qual. But when I think of qual, I think of, A, storytelling, and B, bigger picture of someone’s world, right? And so I think, when you understand the world that the consumer is living in, then it’s not just a quick answer to whatever the question is. It’s also inspiration for other things that can come later on, and it’s knowledge to not make the same mistakes, right? So if they’re like, you know, “Joyce, do you eat watermelon.” I say, “No, I don’t eat watermelon.” A terrible example, but, like, I legitimately don’t eat watermelon. So let’s say, like, someone is like, “Ah... you know, she doesn’t eat watermelon because they use watermelon for stereotypes of Black people,” whatever the thing may be, and that’s just not my story. I just don’t eat it. It makes me nauseous, right? So, like—
Lenny:[laugh] I just, just don’t like it.
Joyce:No [laugh]. It has nothing to do with anything. But I think that, like, without that context that normally comes from qual, you might make a whole series of decisions around marketing watermelons to XYZ types of consumers, and you’re ignoring a whole part of their story or identity that can then inform other things, right?
Lenny:Right.
Joyce:It was like, oh, I don't eat watermelon, but I love watermelon flavored lollipops, whatever. Like, you know, like, there’s just so much more context and direction that can be gotten from qual for brands.
Lenny:Yeah. Great. And we can do that at scale, now. I mean, that’s the flip side, right? And so on the—you know, due to technology and with the ability to analyze 1,000 video interviews with somebody—with people at once, no big deal. So I don't know if our idea—our definitions of qual and quant—I think we’re going to have to come up with a new framework.
Joyce:Yeah [laugh].
Lenny:And maybe it’s understanding versus validation.
Joyce:Hmm...
Lenny:Maybe that’s the way to kind of think about it. So...
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:So in this technology, this new emerging technology paradigm we’re going into, where we could talk to a million people with more of a qualitative interaction at once; is that going to be appropriate for some of the audiences that you have focused on, especially this idea of authenticity, et cetera, et cetera? Are we wrong? Are we not? Are we going to end up disenfranchising populations by our leaning into technology?
Joyce:That’s a very interesting question. A, I would love to see some of this stuff because it’s hard to even visualize, you know, let’s say 1,000 people all being interviewed at the same time or, like, the data being analyzed at the same time. Very interesting. I haven’t utilized any of this stuff personally.
Lenny:And we can follow up afterwards. I’m happy to point you in a direction.
Joyce:Oh, please.
Lenny:There are companies doing that. So, yes, but anyway. Go ahead.
Joyce:Yeah. Because the only one—the closest thing I saw was one of the—I had a demo with one of the people from the pitch—
Lenny:Listen Labs?
Joyce:Yeah. Yes.
Lenny:The winners?
Joyce:Yes.
Lenny:Yeah. Yeah.
Joyce:Yeah. So, you know, we had that and, you know, he kind of showed, like, how to the probes and la, la, la. But, you know, it was like, “Oh, very cool,” but you still need, like, a moderator for proper old-school qual, like, to have those. So, when you talk about by the hundreds or thousands or whatever, this would be so interesting to see.
Lenny:Well, I’ll put it out. The lowest one, Remesh, I mean, they pioneered that process of a moderator being able to conduct an interview with hundreds and hundreds of people at once.
Joyce:Really? They were at—
Lenny:Yeah.
Joyce:I saw them at the conference too. I met one of the ladies there, Rachel, but—
Lenny:Yeah.
Joyce:—I guess we didn’t really get into what they were doing. That’s cool.
Lenny:Yeah. Ten years ago, they actually won the competition ten years ago. They were, you know, one of the first alumni of the competition. So they—
Joyce:Wow.
Lenny:Yeah. Anyway. Happy to follow up with—and talk more about that. We’re going to see more and more companies with variations of that. But—
Joyce:Yeah.
Lenny:—but I am curious on your take: is if authenticity is a driver for, you know, some less represented populations or in emerging generations?
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:What do you think? Are we going down the wrong path? Could we end up hurting ourselves by leaning into these technological intermediaries?
Joyce:Interesting. And so two things that come to mind. One, circling back to having not used it. When I mentioned that, it’s because it’s—I don’t want to be quick to judge—
Lenny:Sure.
Joyce:—or critique them because I don’t know what it’s like, and it could very well be great. But, from where I stand now, just even just hearing about it, you know, my initial reaction is like, “Uh, yikes.”
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:The second thing... [laugh]. The second thing that comes to mind is just this, like, cyclical journey that we have as humanity, where we go from, like—like, it’s almost like we overcorrect on things a lot. And so...
Lenny:Yeah [laugh].
Joyce:You know, we’ll move in one direction and be like, “Tech is the way,” and then it’s like, “Oh, my gosh. I miss human connection. Let’s meet in person,” you know, but then—so then it, you know—like during the pandemic, it’s like, “Oh, Zoom is great. Who needs to do anything in person anymore? You can do Zoom happy hour and Zoom this and Zoom that.” And then now it’s like, get me out of the house.
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:So [laugh] so I wonder, for this, if it’s one of those where it’s like, “We can talk to 1,000 people at once and all of these things,” and then we’ll get to the point in our industry where we realize, like, man, we—you know what would be awesome would be if we had one on one with a real person. And I will be like, “Oh, so you mean IDIs, like back in the day, right?”
Lenny:Right.
Joyce:Or like how GenZ now wants to go to the mall and stuff, and it’s fascinating. So I don’t know if it’s one of those things where we’re going to, like, all get excited in moving one direction and then realize, like, oh, if I’m really talking about XYZ topics, it would be really cool to just have a one on one experience. But, again, without having tried it, it’s really hard to say. Because I’m fascinated now, and I can’t imagine a world in which something like that would completely satisfy the needs of a client for insights. Like, I would always think of it being paired with something else, maybe something more traditional to supplement it, because even with probes and stuff, like everything is just so individual. But then I don’t know. Maybe if you’re talking to so many people, maybe you don’t need to have everyone’s individual preferences. Maybe you just get a general sense of things, and that’s good enough to build a product, yeah.
Lenny:It’ll evolve to fit for purpose, right? I mean, like, not every study needs conjoint, right? You know, it’s a very specific thing to address a specific issue. I do think that, you know, everything new is—or everything old is new again. We are rapidly moving towards back to voice. Voice will be the primary way that we engage with respondents and asking questions.
Joyce:As opposed to?
Lenny:As opposed to a screen. So...
Joyce:Oh, I see. That’s—
Lenny:That’s just following the, you know, the big tech companies. Or—as they are moving in their AI-assistance and embedding that into the operating systems on mobile devices and PCs, which is what they are doing right this minute, you know, what they push us towards, an audio interaction versus a keyboard or a screen interaction. Screens will be there for us to absorb content.
Joyce:Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
Lenny:You know, but not necessarily to ask questions. That’s just where things are going. So what does that do to research, right? I think we’re back to, whether it is an individual, a interviewer or a researcher or more likely an AI that is doing that at scale and adapting. But, anyway, that’s a whole other conversation.
Joyce:I spend a lot of time with entrepreneurs, especially her in Houston, and I think sometimes—like, spending time with entrepreneurs has helped me understand my job better and helped me understand, you know, market research as whole because the end goal is for the client to get information or insights. And sometimes, me being who I am, I might get carried away and feel like, you know, all the big things I said in the beginning, like, “Oh, we’re changing the world,” and, you know, “the little girl watching the ad,” or whatever—but that’s not really the client’s focus. You know, like, the client is trying—
Lenny:Like, I need them to buy more widgets, right? So [laugh]...
Joyce:Basically [laugh]...
Lenny:Right.
Joyce:Like, eh, you know, that’s great and all, but, like, do that on your own time.
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:So, with that in mind, like, when I think of my entrepreneur friends and how they have had to do customer interviews for the different accelerator programs they’re in and things like that, what—they’re thinking what’s fastest, what’s cheapest, and what will get them the most insights. And so all the human stuff I’m talking about that I love and I’m think it will never place a person, I can also totally see these people leaning towards those options. Because if I’m telling you, you can talk to 1,000 people and get the core of the questions you’re asking answered, and I’ll take about, I don't know, a day, and we’ll get you everything, then, you know, that’s, yeah...
Lenny:Yeah. We’re there.
Joyce:[laugh]...
Lenny:I mean, that—I—that is where we are, Joyce. I think the rule of thumb that I—for me, in thinking about that, is the more tactical the business question is, the less a human is going to be needed to—
Joyce:Hmm...
Lenny:—throughout the entire process. The more strategic the business is, then the more the human will be needed for knowing the question to ask—
Joyce:Mm-hm.
Lenny:—and making sense of the implications. The process of how we do that will still largely be driven via technology, except anything to do with a product. Anything we have to touch, taste, smell, those things, that will still be very much the way it’s—we’ve been doing forever. It’s going to be a CLT or an IHUT or, you know, a sensory test or whatever. That will continue for quite some time, and that will be purely, you know, human to human.
Joyce:Yeah. I think that’s a good point, yeah. Because even with, like, thinking about—right now, for example, you can tell Gemini or ChatGPT or whatever to put together a discussion guide asking, you know, 15 women how they feel about Prada shoes, whatever, and it can come up with the questions. I think that the difference between a market researcher and whoever, business owners putting together their customer questionnaire—it’s knowing what—which of those questions will get you the answers that you need and how to refine it, right? Because then it just spits out a bunch of stuff. So, yeah, I agree with you completely. I think that it’s—it would be a mater of—especially for strategic purposes, still having a human to get in the weeds and move things around. But the technology is there to generate the stuff in a way that—
Lenny:Yeah. It’s an efficiency game, right?
Joyce:Exactly.
Lenny:And that’s—you know, and there’s a whole other conversation. I will be conscious of your time and our audience—the—you know, we’ll see how all that plays out. But I think what I’m hearing from you, and actually, it’s a takeaway from our conversation: you are an example of understanding, in a deeper way, issues that we would not necessarily pick up in a automated process or analysis, right? And that’s that role of, what, intuition, experience, creativity, you know, these human elements that I think we’re a ways away from the robots being able to do [laugh]. I hope. We’ll see. I don’t know. But [laugh]...
Joyce:[laugh].
Lenny:But for the time being, that is the realm of the human, and that is where we add value, and especially with the nuances on—you know, as you’re looking into underrepresented populations and, you know, those things, that’s—we will thrive. That need will continue to do that even though the tools make a need to evolve in how we get down that path.
Joyce:Absolutely.
Lenny:Yeah. So I think you and I can go on for a long time, and I hope that we get a chance to talk more in the future. This is really a fun conversation. So where do you look for inspiration? What inspires you in life that you can also funnel into your career?
Joyce:The top thing I would say is travel, for sure. So I try to go to a new country every year for my birthday. I love traveling, obviously, from all the places I’ve lived in. But what I love about traveling is, A, just stepping out of my world because I tend to create a very curated world for myself. Like, even where I live in Houston now, I visited, made sure it’s, like, a five‑minute walk to my doctor, my dentist, to this, that. Like, it’s just, you know, ten minutes from my friends. It’s very intentional. With that is a lot of comfort and ease, which I love, but it's also—you know, you get very insulated in your world and how things are. So traveling kind of takes me out of that to meet different people and have different experiences. One of the more recent trips I made, that I spoke about briefly at the conference, was I went to Nigeria for the first time in December. We were working on a project for a large social media company that was doing research—was going to do research in Nigeria with us in January, virtually. So, while there, I was like, “Oh, I’m just going to take advantage and visit the facility of the people we’re going to work with. They’re all lovely,” and just see what the vibe is like because, you know, this is market research in Nigeria. I want to see what it’s like. So they were lovely. They came and picked me up from the Airbnb, and it took me, like, an hour and a half to get to the facility with all the traffic, and it was really hot. It was very, very hot. They had an AC, but the thing is, when the AC was on, it was so loud that—because they had their partners in Kenya who had called on Zoom. So you couldn’t hear anything that they were saying, so they had to turn the AC off. And we were all in that room just sweating bullets, right?
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:This thing—because it was, like, me, the recruiter, the moderator, the translator, like, all these people. And so, now fast forward, in January, I’m back in the US and [laugh], and they’re doing these interviews. And my colleague messages me, and she’s like, “Looks like the moderator is sweating bullets.” And I’m like, “Trust me. I understand what’s going on in that room. I know exactly where she’s seated, and she can’t have the AC on because it’s so loud.” And here’s the thing—but it was just, like, the funniest thing because it was, like, having experience that we can understand. But if I hadn’t gone, you know, I would just be like, “Just turn the AC on.”
Lenny:Right [laugh].
Joyce:Like, why are you, I mean, sweating so much [laugh] during the interview? And there are other little things, like even with the traffic, realizing how long it took me. I think we were supposed to meet at noon, and they said they’d come pick me up at 9:30.
Lenny:[laugh].
Joyce:And I was—you know—
Lenny:And it’s like, what?
Joyce:—in vacation mode. And I’m like, “Why are you doing this? Is there any reason?” And so by 9 o’clock—it’s vacation mode, so I woke up like, okay, you’re coming at 9:30; I’m going to wake up at 9 o’clock. And by the time I wake up, I have, like, all these messages. Like, we’re here parked downstairs, from, like, 8:30. I’m like, woah, I still need to get ready. He’s like, “No, don’t worry. Take your time,” right? But then he explained normally there’s more traffic on the way over, so he left two hours earlier to get to me so then we can then take two hours to get back. And there’s all of this stuff that, if a respondent, for example, were to come late to a group, sometimes it can be hard to even understand. Like, what do you mean? You’re like, you’re two hours late, or whatever. But then you live it, and you’re like, wow. And even in the conversation that came up, like, just being in Lagos, Nigeria, and the number of power outages we had at our Airbnb—and so just asking them, you know, if these are IDIs, and the people are going to have these conversations from their homes, what are we going to do if they don’t have a generator because we had one. And so then it changed the recruit to be, you know, at the facility even though it was just IDIs, and they had two Wi-Fi power bank whatever things just in case. But, you know, normally when you’re doing IDIs virtually, it’s almost like why would you need to leave your house? But there are just different things like that. And the recruit changed, too, right? Like, you want to make sure it’s people who can come into the facility at whatever time. So travel indirectly and directly also influences the work because it’s like how do we make sure we’re accommodating—again, just going back to meeting people where they’re at so that they’re feeling the most comfortable to give us the insights that we need. And what I’m most excited about, actually, is global research, what all of this will mean for global research. As brands expand, especially to Affrica, what that will look like, right? Because we had AI transcripts for one of these projects, and with the accents in Nigeria, like, it was all, all bad. [laugh] So it’s like where are we going with that. I’d be really curious to see and to just make it easier and less daunting, I guess, for brands to really, like, go into these places outside the US.
Lenny:Yeah. Well, I think that you, particularly, will have a very important role to play in thinking through that idea of localization. I mean, so we tote this idea that, you know, understanding context and nuance to populations—you just brought up a really great point. You know, we think here in the west or in the United States, particularly, you know, “Oh, yes. How cool we have this technology, and it’s so great.” It doesn’t mean it has anything that is at all applicable to the life of someone in Lagos, right?
Joyce:Right.
Lenny:Or whatever the case may be. And of course, they’re going to want that technology to be deployed there, so you’ll definitely play a role in that. This is great, Joyce. I really, really have enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for taking the time. Where can people find you?
Joyce:I can be found on LinkedIn, just Joyce Chuinkam on LinkedIn. That’s my primary online abode [laugh] and so catch me there. And yeah, I’m excited. This was really great. Thank you for talking to me. It reminds me of why I do what I do, you know? I’m like, oh, this was great. Let me flipping get back to work.
Lenny:Yeah [laugh]. That’s right. It’s just an interview. It’s an IDI. I mean, it really is [laugh], so...
Joyce:Yeah, it is. Yeah. It was nice to be on the opposite end. And I’m like yapping away. I’m like, I don’t know if I answered your question or not, but it’s great, and I’m talking [laugh].
Lenny:You did. You were great. Really appreciate it. So all right. Thank you. I want to give a shout-out to our producer, Natalie; to our editor, Big Bad Audio; to our sponsors. And, you know, we have another weekly show called The Exchange every Friday at 12, where Karen Lynch and I kind of recap the news of the week and do it all in 30 minutes and give you our take. So, audience, if you just can’t get enough or if you would like it in a much shorter dose—so if this long-form podcast is too much for you and you want to get a 30-minute view, check The Exchange out every Friday. That’s it for now. We’ll see you on another edition of the Greenbook Podcast soon. Bye-bye.
