124 — Building Global Standards in Qualitative Research: Martha Llobet on AQR’s Vision

Karen: 00:00:00

Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. It’s Karen Lynch. I’m happy to be hosting today and having a conversation with somebody who I’ve known for several years now. We have had sort of parallel paths in the space of qualitative research. I’m really excited to welcome Martha Llobet to the show today. Martha, how are you?

Martha: 00:00:32

Good. Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s great. I’m super happy to come with everybody and see everyone, so very happy.

Karen: 00:00:42

That’s great. That’s great. So, to our listeners, Martha is the founder and CEO of Q2Q Global—so it’s a qualitative agency, which we’ll get into in a little bit—but she’s also here representing AQR, the Association for Qualitative Research, in her role as a board member right now. So, we’re talking a little bit about the AQR, we’ll talk a little bit about just qualitative in general, in the world, in and around the US because it’s more of an international audience. So Martha, why don’t you just take a minute and give people some context on your background in qualitative and your organization.

Martha: 00:01:17

So, I started in qualitative—well, I started market research, like, 20 years it’s going to be this year. I started with working for TNS, and then I moved to Millward Brown, which both of them now are Kantar. Later, I worked in another type of more small companies and all that. I started as a quantitative research, really, but then later I moved to qualitative. I really [laugh] enjoyed more that side than the quant.

Being, like, part of it, I thought that the association were giving quite a lot of things, and I’ve always been really grateful. And few years ago, I’ve been the luckiest to be part of this association, AQR, and also I’m now in ESOMAR as well, so I’m trying to split between the two of them. But especially, I think, AQR is quite close to my heart because especially, I was living in London for eight years so—and it was where I started my career—so I really wanted to do it.

Karen: 00:02:22

So, let me ask some questions then. So, what was it about qual that drew you in? Let’s just go there a minute.

Martha: 00:02:28

I think that the way to go deeper, I think that quantitative always left me, why? Why these people do that? Why these people react to this? Even they say to me, they choose a color, you know, they could choose the blue color, and I could have 500 people saying, “I prefer the blue than purple,” but I never know why. So, I think that the qualitative provide us that background, that strong of the deepness of why people react to these things, or why people choose that thing. So, I think it’s what it brings me coming back and back again to qual.

Karen: 00:03:06

Yeah. So, you were in London when you made that transition?

Martha: 00:03:09

Ye—no, I did it in Barcelona, actually [laugh].

Karen: 00:03:12

You did—so yes, to our listeners, you are in Barcelona now, right Martha?

Martha: 00:03:15

Yeah. I live in Barcelona. Well, that’s my address. A lot of the people in the industry thinks that I never [laugh] live there. But yeah, I spend a little bit of the time here [laugh].

Karen: 00:03:26

A little bit of time here. You know, and as people can attest, one of the reasons why I’m in the role that I’m in right now is, after 30 years doing what you’re doing, I was like, I really need to settle down and stop [laugh] because the life of a qualitative researcher is out there, right?

Martha: 00:03:43

It’s everywhere.

Karen: 00:03:43

It has you out in the world, talking to people. So, it’s wonderful, until suddenly—you know, for me, I was like, I got to slow down. So, more power to you to being the road warrior you are.

Martha: 00:03:56

Yeah no, I remember this year I came back, we had a very big multi-country study in five countries, and it was every week, and I completely forgot of what was the essence of getting the suitcase on a Friday, coming back home, clean the clothes, get it all ready to be on the road again on Sunday night, or even on Monday morning. So yeah, but I have to say that go back to face-to-face, it was lovely. So, I think one thing compensate the other.

Karen: 00:04:29

Yeah, yeah. No, for sure, for sure. And I think that people who are passionate—I am filling the need that I have to kind of connect with and talk with other people through my role as a podcast host and a livestream host because I still love that. I love the act of interviewing and talking to people. So, I’m glad you’re indulging us in this situation because I get to do this. So, let’s just take another step back—

Martha: 00:04:52

It’s a pleasure.

Karen: 00:04:52

Yes, thank you—AQR, I want to know what it was that this organization offered you that got you to the place where you started volunteering. Because, again, for our listeners, many of you know that I have been passionate about the QRCA here in the US for so long, and there is an international chapter, but AQR was something that I didn’t even realize there was this other hub for qualitative research. So, talk to me about it, give us more context, and what was it that drew you in?

Martha: 00:05:20

So, AQR was funded in 1980, and basically it was funded to help a little bit as an association between the qualitative—a little bit similar to what QRCA happened—and they really promote the high standards on qualitative, like offering education, network opportunities, you know, all these things. For me, what engaged me was that I got so much support when I was starting in the qualitative. I think that an association which is only for qualitative, it’s very important, you know? We have MRS, which we collaborate, but—in the UK as the same as you have the Insights Association—but I think you’re seeing in AQR always give it. The way I got introduced to AQR was in one QRCA and AQR conference that they used to do, this global conference.

And I got there, and I was impressed of how the Americans were so pragmatic and how philosophical the UK was. And from there, I started to get involved and involved. And then a few years ago, my friend Nikki Lavoie, she was, like… she was already in AQR in the council, and in the board, then she convinced me to help her—

Karen: 00:06:45

Real [crosstalk 00:06:45]—

Martha: 00:06:46

—in the global all of that. So, she recruit me a little bit, but I’m really happy that she did. They’re amazing people, everybody, from Lucy, the president, to Rose, which is our secretary, all the people are super involved. They help, we do monthly meetings online, and then we see us quite often. I fly to London as much as I can when they have the personal ones, to help.

And really, I think it’s, like, a great opportunity for younger researchers. And we focus a lot in the younger researchers. It’s a group for us, very important, helping. And I even… people of my team from Barcelona have gone to certain courses over there, and they learn so much, which is great.

Karen: 00:07:34

Now, tell me the audience it serves. So obviously, you know, over in the UK, as you’re saying, and Europe. So, talk to me about the audience for AQR.

Martha: 00:07:42

So, majority is the UK market. It’s true that we have few of us that we are from foreigners. The latest people that they joined was other Spanish [laugh] people from Madrid. But normally it involves everything from recruiters, from simultaneous translators. Majority of them are moderators, but people from field work agencies, facilities, so everybody involved in the qualitative gets a piece of it.

ncies, we have some [big full: 00:08:21

Karen: 00:09:02

That’s great. Yeah, so one of the things that you said was attractive to you in the QRCA was sort of the pragmatic—is it education? I don’t know what we call that—how the conversations were much more pragmatic, like, applications—

Martha: 00:09:16

Yeah.

Karen: 00:09:16

Of the work, right?

Martha: 00:09:17

Exactly, yeah.

Karen: 00:09:18

It sounds like—and I don’t mean to put words in your mouth—but you brought some of that in to the AQR as well. So, would you say it’s more pragmatic now, or does it still, you know, seem philosophical to you [laugh]?

Martha: 00:09:31

I think they have the beauty of the philosophical. I think that some—you could see in the last conference, they were quite [proud 00:09:37] of it, which were pragmatic. And we had few people from the QRCA coming for the first time, which we love it because we love that we had this interaction between both organizations. But I think we will still always more [laugh] philosophical, which I really like as well. In the last conference, we were talking more about the human side of the qualitative, and it was a very, very good day in the conference, and everybody was like, really enjoying it, this new controversy that we have right now [laugh].

Karen: 00:10:13

Yeah, yeah. Well, let’s dig into that a little bit, right? So, you know, use the word kind of controversy.

Martha: 00:10:20

[laugh].

Karen: 00:10:20

I don’t know if it’s controversial or if it’s provocative, like, I don’t know what the right word is for the reality we’re living in, but let’s talk about that. What’s the pulse in qual over there [laugh]?

Martha: 00:10:34

So, I think that the view from AQR, basically, is that AI, it’s introducing us a very amount of new tools, you know, like sentimental analytics, automatic top classifications, things like that, no? Which help us, help us to go faster, that at the end, for us, the cultural interpretation provided by what we consider the qualitative researchers, I think we consider that, to be able to extract everything, it has to get very [structful 00:11:11], minimal—um, meaningful, sorry [laugh]—insights. I think it’s something that the machines cannot replicate right now, the empathy, the ability to [unintelligible 00:11:26] as humans and things like that, behaviors, has to be for the human researchers, and it keeps from the human researchers. So, in a way for us, that was the idea, you know, let’s welcome AI to help us, but at the end of the day, the human touch will never disappear from the research.

Karen: 00:11:49

Yeah, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you use the phrase cultural interpretation, which I think is really interesting phrase, and I haven’t really heard about—I’ve heard a lot about, kind of, you know, the human approach, and I’ve heard about, you know, behavioral, you know, observation and all that, but cultural interpretation, actually, I think you’re the perfect person to talk about that. Tell me more of what that means.

Martha: 00:12:14

I think—and this happened to me as well because even I do Spanish research, and I go to Mexico, and we do research there—I think the every person brings something to the table, and every culture in every country brings something to the table. And I think that sometimes even the body language and the way that we express the things, it’s cultural, and you need to be careful on that because that is the difference. It could be a very slightly difference, but that can help or destroy a brand in different countries, depending how they approach it. So, I think that to provide this, as I said, this cultural thing, you have to be human to try it. Because I think at the moment—I’m not saying it not going to be in the future—but at the moment, I think AI cannot offer that, yet.

Karen: 00:13:12

I love this part of our conversation because we are connecting dots for me that I hadn’t really thought of before. So, in the world of qualitative we often say, you know, if we’re doing research with Spanish-speaking women, we would want a Spanish-speaking moderator, for example, you know? If we are researching, you know, kind of some dynamics and behaviors within a culture, we want the moderator to be able to, again, interpret those things. That has been a conversation we’ve had for decades with face-to-face research. Of course, that plays out in the world of AI. That’s a fascinating dynamic that I’ve not heard as part of the conversation before. We’ve been talking about just human in general, but when you are doing international research that’s absolutely critical.

Martha: 00:14:04

Yeah, no, and I’m super for of always using a local moderator in the countries. You know, and even as you were saying, one of the things we were discussing with a client the other day was, like, I was talking to a client who was like, “Oh, I want somebody who speaks English,” and we were going to do some Hispanics research. And then they were like, “Oh well, if only speaks Spanish, it’s okay.” And I was like, “No. We need somebody who is fluent in English and Spanish because especially Latin American—not Latin American, but Hispanics in the US, they mix both, so they need to be comfortable that the moderator will be able to follow in both languages.” And I think that this is a key thing. And when we do research in different countries, even I speak the language, I don’t moderate. I have somebody local moderating.

Karen: 00:15:02

Yeah. Well, and for again, like, every now and then, I interject something for listeners who might be, you know, thinking about this and doing more research in markets that are, you know, outside of the country that you live in. I remember one of my favorite—maybe not my favorite, but most memorable projects—I was working with Marta Villanueva, who we had talked about earlier today, and she was, you know—

Martha: 00:15:25

I love her [laugh].

Karen: 00:15:25

I know. I love her, too. She’s in my heart, always. Anyways, she was moderating for us, but we were all doing the work of translating an English discussion guide—or it started with the English screen error, translating it into Spanish, but the agency that we were working with had one kind of translation of it, the Spanish-speaking project director, we had a different, and then she also would be like, “I could have also translated this very differently.” There are so many versions—

Martha: 00:16:00

Yeah. Interpretations, yeah.

Karen: 00:16:02

Interpretations. And I was like, “This is complicated.” So, do not tread lightly into the space of international research [laugh] if you have not gone there before.

Martha: 00:16:10

It’s a nightmare. It’s a nightmare. Even between the same country, even one of the things that we are presenting in IIEX, we’ve done it in four different countries. And in the four—because we did Brazil, but other four Spanish languages—and even in that one [laugh], we had to change the questionnaire in every single country, the language, some of the expressions, everything because it didn’t relate it from one country to another. And in theory, we all speak [laugh] Spanish, right?

Karen: 00:16:45

Right, right. Yeah, it’s really interesting. And then also respectful of—and I don’t want to get too pragmatic. Here I am, I’m an American, getting pragmatic on it [laugh]; let’s get back to philosophy—

Martha: 00:16:55

That’s [all right 00:16:54].

Karen: 00:16:55

But don’t shortchange the timelines, right? Because all of these things take more time. And I think that that’s another thing. People go into these projects thinking it’s not as complicated as it is, but it is definitely—anyway, you have a skill set which I’m really happy exists in the world of international research, so kudos to you.

But you also—Martha mentioned IIEX, so you know, I want to talk a little bit about that. I—and I really do, I have a solid memory of you at an IIEX event—I believe it was Atlanta the last time I saw you at an IIEX event, when I was working for a different company, before I had even joined Greenbook—so I know you’ve been in our ecosystem here at Greenbook as well. So, talk to me a little bit about your experience with IIEX because I think this episode will launch right before IIEX LatAm, which is being held in Miami this year, where you’ll be coming.

Martha: 00:17:46

So, yeah, no, IIEX, I think I knew about it eight years ago, and the first event I went was the IIEX Amsterdam, the European one. And I really enjoy it. I thought it was, like, a lot of innovation, which I think it was refreshing, and I really enjoy every minute of the conference. So, I become a very big fan. And I remember when I was speaking with Rafael about the Latin one, and he was like, “Oh, it’s going to be in Miami. You must come,” da-da-da.

speak, everybody, every [hop: 00:18:47

My husband came two years ago to the one in Austin, and he basically was enjoying every minute of being there. And he was like, “Oh, I just heard about these things so new, and I heard about all these things so new.” He’s not even in the industry, but he spent the best two days ever going to every conference. So, he was having more fun than I did [laugh], in that moment when I was working, and he was enjoying it. But I think it’s very, very good.

Karen: 00:19:47

It’s so funny. I have, you know, my husband, who was in the industry for a while, and still—you know, and he has come to he has come to the events also, but I think you’re one of the few people that I have talked to that also has, like, has done this as, like, a husband and wife couple. Like, it’s—because you never stop talking about it, then. It’s like, you’re back in your hotel room, and you’re talking about it, or you know, you’re having breakfast and you’re talking about it. It becomes, like, this fully immersive, 24/7 experience when you’re there with your spouse. So, I hope more people bring their spouses. It’s kind of fun.

Martha: 00:20:19

Oh, yeah. No, no, definitely. The only problem I have now is all my friends are like, “Is your husband coming back?” [laugh].

Karen: 00:20:24

[laugh].

Martha: 00:20:25

And I’m like—

Karen: 00:20:25

Oh please—

Martha: 00:20:26

“Not this time. Not this time.” But yeah, no. But it was a great experience, and I love to share this with him from time to time [laugh].

Karen: 00:20:37

Yeah, cool. So, let’s go back to AQR for a minute because you’re going to be—you know, again, we’re talking about IIEX, and at this LatAm event, you’re going to have a few hats on, right? So, you know, you’ve got an ESOMAR hat which we’ve talked about, but you also have your business hat. And obviously, AQR is a part of your reality also. But for that particular organization, what do you think the big initiatives are right now? Like, what do you think is the most pressing thing that your organization is managing, or your board is wrangling?

Martha: 00:21:08

I think that we did this at the beginning of this year about the human. [unintelligible 00:21:13] I think growing in, like, webinars, we have started more for webinars, the training courses, the accreditation schemes are the things where, right now, it’s focusing. We are focusing a lot in introducing the new technologies as well that the younger generations, as I mentioned before, I think, is, like, what the association is looking forward into it. For us to have a high level of standardization and accreditation, and making it that everybody in the industry knows how to do it is very important. And in the UK for them, is, like… I think, that continue expanding the digital offering and all these things and going more into the media, and all this is what we are going for.

We have to consider that we are not as big as QRCA. We are a very, very small association, so we have more limited resources, but we are trying to get into the wave of everything. And I think we done it. We participate in the different conference, which we really appreciate, so I think this just continue learning and engagement with the community is very important for us.

Karen: 00:22:28

Yeah, let’s talk about those young people the, you know, newer entrants to the industry, if you will. Because you know, it is a focus for the QRCA, you know? There is kind of a young professionals special interest group, and there’s a young professionals grant that they award. So, you know, they have more resources, as we discussed. But what is your goal with them right now, and what are you trying to achieve with the younger professional in mind?

Martha: 00:22:52

I think, to open the door to them that they have this great learning access and library, if you want to say it or wherever, that they can use all of us who’ve been more years in the industry to help them and grow. And I think that also showing them that be members of a group of people that they share the same interests, and the same profession, and the same passion. Because I think that you don’t get into qualitative if [laugh] you’re not passionate about it. It’s what we are focused, and we do it with—we do different things.

d as [youngers and researcher: 00:23:35

Karen: 00:24:08

Yeah. No, that’s great. And, you know, I have over here on this other monitor of mine, I have the AQR website up, and I just saw an award. It’s now gone away because it’s one of those dynamic websites, but talk to me a little bit about your Excellence Award.

Martha: 00:24:22

The Excellence Award is, for us, one of our most important awards; we really make a lot of effort. And this year, the amount of people that sent us the application was fantastic. We normally try—well, we’ve been sharing it in different situations, but for us, it’s the most important one. I think that shows what the industry, and it’s showing what the efforts, and every year the papers are [laugh] doing better and better. But for me, I think it’s one of the most recognizable awards that you can get as qualitative person.

Karen: 00:25:01

Yeah, no. I definitely think people should look into it. And like I said, in the [show notes 00:25:04], when we get to that point, you know, some of these links will be in the [show notes 00:25:07], so Natalie will take care of that. So, let’s talk about one other thing that I was curious about. As you were talking about some of the webinars that you’re doing at AQR, and you know, the events in general, and the training in general, I started to think about training, and I started to think about, in the US, so many QRCA members are actually, you know, trained moderators at RIVA Moderator Training School, or maybe they’ve gone through the Burke training program. And I think about training, is there an equivalent of that kind of in the UK? Is there an equivalent of RIVA or Burke? Where do people go for training? Or really, are you it?

Martha: 00:25:46

I think for—normally, there is a lot in the MRS Association. They get, like, different points, and then you get different levels of it, but I think in terms of the qualitative, when you hear, or you see that somebody has done a qualitative course with us within the AQR, the name of it is, like, why, why, like, okay, they have these quality. They’ve been growing on these levels. So, we do courses from the beginning, like, an initiation of moderation, and then analysis, and reporting. So, every single thing—or briefings or things like that. I think a lot of the people shares between MRS and AQR, but for qualitative, AQR is more well-known than MRS.

Karen: 00:26:37

Yeah, yeah. No, it’s really interesting because obviously those other models that I was talking about here in the US are, you know, kind of for-profit models, right? Those are businesses designed to train people, and therefore, the job of the QRCA really, is to continue professional development. Like, you’ve been trained; let’s keep moving you along, right? Let’s keep your skills sharp.

Martha: 00:26:57

I think that here we cover—we don’t have—well, of course, you pay for the course, but that people give their time, sometimes for free, and things like that. So, it’s really like to support them and to learn and to teach them. And as you said, it’s a little bit, as we’ll do with QRCA, in terms of, like, growing their, like, professional way, but in a—

Karen: 00:27:22

But good starting point for skill-building.

Martha: 00:27:24

Exactly, yeah.

Karen: 00:27:25

So, yeah, that’s neat. That’s a nice service. So, I commend you. I commend you and the organization for that. I think that’s great. So, what do you think is on the horizon for you? So, we’ll start with AQR. Like, what do you think is going to be the next big thing for you all?

Martha: 00:27:41

Well, we are working in very interesting new courses that we’re going to show soon, so I think that this is going to be new. And I know that we are trying to do some events for next year, so we are preparing it. I [laugh] cannot say yet, some, but it’s going to be quite interesting. We just did this year our conference, so we are just taking up back all the things and all the effort that we did. In terms of AQR, I say we will continue on these, like, standardization and professionalism of our members.

We are trying—I’m trying to also make it more global and help them to expand more, in terms of, like, other countries and knowledge of, like, what we can offer to them. Because I think that always have a step in the UK is also very useful, especially because in Europe, UK is the main hub, in a way, in the market research.

Karen: 00:28:45

Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully this will broaden exposure as well to, you know, a larger audience. You know, I know that if I was currently practicing qualitative research, I would want to be aware of what’s happening overseas as well, and get this exposure to this international lens. I think that’s really critical in our, you know, continuously growing, global world. So, I hope those things for you as well, and AQR. What about for you and your organization? What’s next on the horizon for, you know, Q2Q Global?

Martha: 00:29:18

Well, we had the chance to grow a lot between different countries, and our expansion has been to grow in a more multi-country, different projects. A lot of people knew us about only US Hispanics, and Latin America, and some kind of Europe, but we are growing a little bit, every little bit into the Pacific and Asia and all that. So, becoming more global is our logical next step. Is taking us a lot of effort because we [laugh] have to travel to meet everybody in person, so it’s taking us a lot of time, but I think we will be, step by step, a little bit closer to that objective.

Karen: 00:30:04

Well, good luck with all of that. I mean, I think, you know, as I mentioned, that you’re, you know, CEO and founder, and I also think I said in our pre-call, like, I’m always very pleased to speak with, not just business founders, but female founders. It’s no small feat. You carry the weight of the world on your shoulders when you do what you’ve done. So, what kind of, you know, looking-backwards advice would you give to somebody who, you know, may be a female who is trying to grow also, in her own way, grow her own business, or start her own business? What sort of words of wisdom do you have for somebody who might be starting out?

Martha: 00:30:41

Don’t over—how I will say it? Like, don’t make yourself accountable so much. I think that especially if we found something, we are very hard on ourselves. I remember that I became from a sales role where I was used to sell $3 million [laugh] and stuff like that, and then my first year was not even $150,000. And I know I was like, how I could do that, how I can just be—no, I think that it’s a great step, it’s a great adventure, I love every minute of it. I keep loving it [laugh], but I will say, not be so hard on yourself. I think that this could be like, “Okay, if it’s not done this year, you will get next year.” Don’t try to rush because I think slowly is better. And I learned that [laugh].

Karen: 00:31:38

No, that’s great. That’s wonderful advice. And then I’ll ask one more question before we wrap, also. Because you’re a female founder who also finds time to volunteer for AQR and to volunteer for ESOMAR with, you know, 20 years of the career behind you, tell me why that’s important to you to give in that way.

Martha: 00:31:56

I think we have to give back. I think I had so great mentors through my career that they spent the time on me, and they allow me to grow. And I think this is my time to give back. I couldn’t do it. I remember when I was asked from people to help them, and I was with the beginning of my company, and I really couldn’t, I think I got to a moment where my company is more established, where even if we grow, I have amazing people around me, like my right hand, Jennifer, is amazing, and she helps me to be able to give more time to the rest.

And I think being association helped them to grow and share. This is—I don’t mind even if I have to work weekends or if I have to look that at midnight because I don’t have time before, I think it’s so warm in me, I don’t know how to say it, so comfortable, or—

Karen: 00:32:59

Yeah.

Martha: 00:33:00

I get more than I give, even if I put thousands of hours. And seeing so many other people so [compromised 00:33:06] is such an inspiration that you get inspired to give more because you see the others, and you’re like, no, no, I want to give more. I want to give more. So, I think that in what—you have to find the right moment. You cannot do it when you are burned, or when you are this, but when you have the right moment into it, you know, you’ve been with me in the wire, and it’s amazing when we can share all these things, and I have to thank so many of those women who have helped me in my career and stuff like that. And I think… to give back, I think in one moment or another, you must do it.

Karen: 00:33:47

Yeah. Yeah, when the moment is right. I think that’s all beautifully said, Martha. Thank you so much. So—

Martha: 00:33:53

Well, thank you.

Karen: 00:33:53

—we’re about to wrap. Is there anything that you wish I had asked you that I didn’t ask you?

Martha: 00:33:59

I think that for us, one of the things that we want to say as AQR, and I think that I was saying, I think that for what we are looking for is that human touch, and I think that we still have to go for the human touch. I think AI is going to help us a lot in how to use the tools that we need for AI, and it’s going to be—but that they don’t replace that human judgment, that—as we were saying—the human part of it, it’s really, really important. And I think that this is one of the things I will say: we always going to need the qualitative side of the things. So, I think it’s really, really—and I appreciate everything, Karen, for you to inviting me and giving me the opportunity of this. I’m so looking forward to see you at the end of next month in Miami.

Karen: 00:34:54

[laugh]. Well, I will say, which I have had to say before, but I personally, am not going to Miami.

Martha: 00:35:02

Aww.

Karen: 00:35:02

I know. It’s—actually, I’m very sad about it because I would like to. I have a big personal milestone happening around me where my son and daughter-in-law are expecting their first baby, my first grandchild, at the exact same time, so I am staying local so that I can be on call. So—

Martha: 00:35:20

That’s the most important thing. [crosstalk 00:35:23].

Karen: 00:35:20

It is so important. So, I am so sorry I’m not coming to Miami. Natalie will be there. You’ll see Natalie, and of course, other members of our team: Cara, and Bridget, and I believe Kevin is going. So, you’ll see plenty of Greenbook members, but I cannot be there.

Martha: 00:35:35

Well, you will be very missed, but we understand [laugh].

Karen: 00:35:38

Aww. Well, I will see you at our events this spring. But Martha—

Martha: 00:35:42

Yes, definitely.

Karen: 00:35:42

—thank you for a wonderful conversation.

Martha: 00:35:44

Thank you so much. It’s been my pleasure, so thank you. Thank you so much.

Karen: 00:35:47

Of course. Of course. I’m so glad. And also I just want to thank once again, our producer, Natalie Pusch. Thank you, Natalie, for all that you do. Thank you to our audio editor, Big Bad Audio. Thank you so much for the work that you do from week to week. And of course, our listeners, thank you for tuning in and giving us your time and your attention. It’s wonderful to do what we do when we do it for you, so thanks for tuning in. Bye-bye, everybody.