46 — DIY & Service: Adapting to Dynamism in Research

Lenny: 00:00:10

Hello, everybody, it’s Lenny Murphy with another edition of the GreenBook Podcast. Thank you very much for taking time out of your day to spend it with us because you’re the reason why we’re here. So, as always, every guest is special on the GreenBook Podcast, you’ve probably heard me say this many times now. But, you know, some are a little closer to home for me personally, and today is one of those times. So we’re joined by Frédéric from Toluna and Rob from Gutcheck. Hello, guys. How are ya?

Rob: 00:00:43

Hey, Lenny, thanks for having us.

Lenny: 00:00:44

Glad to be here. So for those who don’t know you, although, gosh, I don’t know who that would be, why don’t we do a quick intro? Rob, why don’t we start with you and then Frédéric, you can take it from there.

Rob: 00:00:54

Great. Thanks, Lenny. I’m glad to be here and glad to be a part of the GreenBook Podcast. So I have most recently been leading the Gutcheck organization for the past two-and-a-half years. Some people might know me from my past work at Kantar, Nielsen, TNS, and IRI.

Lenny: 00:01:30

So a bunch of small companies nobody’s ever heard of, Rob.

Rob: 00:01:31

Until we got to Gutcheck.

Lenny: 00:01:34

[laugh]. Yeah. That’s right. Welcome. Frédéric?

Frédéric: 00:01:37

Hi, nice to meet you and see you again. I’m the founder and chief executive of Toluna, and I founded that company a long time ago. And that’s what I do.

Lenny: 00:01:46

[laugh]. And that’s all you do [laugh].

Frédéric: 00:03:59

Thanks for the question, Lenny. First of all, I think we looked at the market and we looked at what we needed to achieve in that market. And, you know, obviously, geographically, the US is a very important market for us where we felt that we had the opportunity to accelerate and we needed—in order to accelerate when we needed to really look at client needs, putting the client at the center of gravity of what we do. And actually, I didn’t have to go very far to define what was needed because what we’ve done with Gutcheck a couple of weeks ago, we actually had done in Europe, you know, years before when we acquired Harris Interactive Europe at the time. And you know, we did it a bit at the time for a different reason, but the outcome of, you know, combining a platform with third-party—first-party proprietary data, moving from panel to audiences, and combining that with research expertise and research experts, I think has proven to be a formula that has been extremely successful for us in the last few years.

Lenny: 00:08:05

Yeah. It makes perfect sense. And you forgot in your list of also, the service component when you’re talking about [crosstalk 00:08:09] with Gutcheck—

Frédéric: 00:08:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s what I call the researching [unintelligible 00:08:11] is the service component, basically.

Lenny: 00:08:14

Yeah. And I love how you framed that—and hold on a second, Rob. I’ll get to you because there, actually—I know your story kind of [laugh] reinforces this, that there is no pure-play SaaS company in this industry—ever—that has succeeded as a pure-play SaaS company. So they’ve all tried—many have tried—nobody has been able to really reach scale without a strong service capability because, to your point, client needs shift in a very dynamic way, for a variety of reasons. I always think of as continuum of, kind of do it yourself, do it with you, do it for you.

Rob: 00:09:06

And what I love about what Toluna is doing and the way Frédéric frames it is, he talks about this opposition, and it is an opposition. And you know, going back to Matt Warta and the founding of Gutcheck, one of our mottos for a long time has been, “We make clients heroes.” And I appreciate that Frédéric emphasized the client-centricity because when you do put yourself as a supplier in the shoes and try to be empathetic of what a client is doing, a client’s got a responsibility to deliver insights to help decision-makers make decisions. And there are multiple dimensions by which they can do that, and that’s the way they need to think. And there are absolutely insight professionals who are fabulous at using the technology and understand research design and can do a whole bunch of work completely independently with the right automation, who also at times want objectivity or want service or want support because it’s a risky decision that they’re supporting.

Lenny: 00:11:11

And yeah, Rob, one thing has always impressed me about Gutcheck—especially in the last few years—well one, obviously, agility wasn’t just what you offered; it was something you practiced. You know, I saw the evolution of the company in multiple ways. But when you came in as CEO, there was definitely a strong underpinning of analytics that was emerging within the company of utilizing lots of different data sources to try and understand consumers in a more holistic way. But the depth of insights that you are providing, and especially during the pandemic, it jumped out that you guys were delivering some just kick-ass stuff on understanding people at depth, not just based on data. So how has that kind of broader view of thinking about how data can form a very in-depth perspective for consumers, how do you think that’s going to play going forward now that you have access to so many more data assets with Toluna?

Rob: 00:12:08

Yeah, we’re so excited. We were building something that was really exciting with some of the world’s best clients, some of the biggest brands and companies in the world. And the way we viewed agile—which I think agile is a term that used in a variety of ways, at times misused as quick and dirty—the way we view agile is about adaptability. It is about, kind of, getting to the heart of what matters, when it matters, and how it matters most. Being empathetic to what a client’s trying to answer, their timelines, their budgets, and so forth.

Lenny: 00:13:51

Which, Frédéric, goes back to that vision that you laid out at the SMR congress that impressed me so much. Now leveraging the information that we have already, and then utilizing the research process to fill in the gaps of information we don’t have, and utilizing that to help drive greater value for the clients. So is that—now let’s think about the future now, this kind of foundational view in place. What’s next? How are you going to continue on that path of moving away from being an ad hoc, you know, just asking questions type of paradigm within research into something that is far more predictive, and proactive from a data standpoint?

Frédéric: 00:14:33

I think it’s a ni—it’s a great question. I think that we need to first build the building block of how we’re going to facilitate the generation of insights for clients. And I just want to come back. When I say that the opposition between DIY and service, you know, is outdated—or should be outdated—you know, some people would believe that I say that, “Oh, Toluna is becoming a full-service research company now, and that’s basically what they’re doing.” No.

Rob: 00:20:40

Let me build upon it if I can. So I actually wrote an article in The GreenBook, I believe it was two or two-and-a-half years ago, where I made the comment that people aren’t templated and insights can’t be templated, either. And I’m evolving and adapting because the technology and the capability is evolving and adapting. We have a whole bunch of great research people within the Gutcheck organization servicing insights professionals on major brands, but we still do an awful lot of ad hoc work in a very bespoke way to solve issues. And what we’re able to do as we look to the future is take those same research experts, but actually build this curation for a client.

Lenny: 00:22:05

Couldn’t agree more. I mean, currently, we’re working on the Gen2 side of the business with a few big brands. They’ve decided that the standard approach to brand tracking doesn’t meet their needs anymore. And no, it doesn’t. And so that’s a business issue. That’s a problem. You know, they want to understand the perception of the brand.

Frédéric: 00:24:22

Thanks very much. But there’s a lot of work ahead of us, so we have to do this very humbly and not be conceited in our view of the market. So. But yes.

Rob: 00:24:34

And, Frédéric, that’s part of the why I believe we’re going to do it because I think both of our organizations are—at the end of the day, this industry is a people industry, despite all the technology we’ve been building. It’s people building the technology, it’s people understanding those business problems and creating the research solutions. And I think we have two cultures and two teams that are so similar in that they aren’t conceited. We have a bit of humility in both of our organizations, and that ability to step away from our own agenda and really, truly be empathetic and put ourselves in the shoes of our clients is what’s going to enable us to pull this off.

Lenny: 00:25:12

All right, so we could go on from that around culture because you don’t hear many leaders in the industry talking about humility. So thank you. It’s one of those traits—I think I’m the most humble guy around.

Frédéric: 00:25:43

Well, I think it’s been a few challenging year for the world and for the industry. And I think, you know, talking about the industry, I think that what it has shown, it has shown quite a high level of, you know, innovation and resilience and adaptability to the market and the macro context of it all. And I think that’s—you know, you look at this industry and, you know, the fact that people are—brands—are coming to us in order to basically, almost daily, you know, I mean, you know, adapting their strategy, understanding the market, and how, you know, even with what we call, I don’t know if we call it that in the US with the [unintelligible 00:26:25] and they’re also using first-party data in order to understand consumer. So you would say, “Well, why on earth [unintelligible 00:26:32] would use first-party data in order to understand the world?” Because the world is complex. That’s a complex world in which we are.

Lenny: 00:27:40

And right there with you. And I would argue, even though capital markets have slowed down—I mean, even today, we’re recording this at the end of the year, right, a very large deal for another pioneer in the industry around automation, and the past few years the tons of money flowing in from private equity groups, combining companies, creating at least the framework for new roll-ups all based on data and service, to some level. So Thoma Bravo comes to mind, right? I mean, they’ve be mining companies left and right. So—and those guys don’t make those decisions when they think that it’s an industry in decline so, you know, they see the opportunity. So let’s see, final thoughts of anything else, Rob?

Rob: 00:28:19

So I’m equally bullish as we go into ’23, that there have been a number of years where insights wasn’t sure they had a full seat at the table. And I think the past few years have elevated the importance of people-centric understanding of the journey and the connection between brands and people and services in a way that insights is become quite a critical point for most big companies to drive their business and to drive growth. And when you look at all the issues we’ve had to be resilient about as we look at what’s going on with the economy, there’s no question that history tells us that those who continue to invest in growth and growing brands, those who continue to invest in innovation, are the ones who continue to satisfy consumers’ needs. And insights being at the center of that, despite all the challenges we face, make me really bullish about the future and what we can do together, clients and suppliers.

Frédéric: 00:29:23

And now, let’s forget to be humble for one moment, and we’re very bullish about Toluna and Gutcheck [laugh].

Lenny: 00:29:31

[laugh].Yes, absolutely. That’s a—we’re allowed bragging rights every now and then. And it really was—again, for you and the listeners—I almost was embarrassed when I saw the announcement of, like, “Why the hell did I not think of that? What a great combination of companies,” you know? As soon as I saw it, it just made great sense. So hats off. I think I’m bullish on you and the industry as well.

Frédéric: 00:30:06

Oh, they can find me—it’s a good question. They can find me on LinkedIn. They can send me a message on LinkedIn; I try to always answer the message on LinkedIn.

Lenny: 00:30:16

Okay. So I shouldn’t give out your cell phone number while we’re talking? [laugh].

Frédéric: 00:30:21

[laugh]. [crosstalk 00:30:21] I’m not sure that's the best of ideas.

Rob: 00:30:25

So I’ve learned Frédéric can find me on about four or five different communication vehicles. But for anyone who’d like to reach out to me, rob.winkle@gutcheckit.com or LinkedIn works great.

Lenny: 00:30:38

Great. Gentleman, thank you. For listeners, we are recording this—

Rob: 00:30:45

Happy New Year.