63 — Beyond the Punchline: Applying Comedy Techniques to Research with Viket Benzesin

Lenny: 00:00:10

Hello, everybody. It’s Lenny Murphy with another edition of the GreenBook Podcast. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to spend it with us. Now, today is going to be fun. I mean, they’re all fun, right, or at least we try and make it fun, but we have a very special guest today. Viket Benzesin, if I didn’t Americanize that too badly. Welcome Viket. How are you?

Viket: 00:00:32

I’m good. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Lenny: 00:00:35

It’s good to have you. So, the fun part. So, Viket is the D2C Customer Journey Manager Europe for Mars Petcare but is—I think you’re going to tell us, you also have a side gig and we’re going to talk about that side gig quite a bit. So, I won’t steal your thunder, so go ahead.

Viket: 00:00:52

Sure. I’m Viket, I’m the Customer Journey Manager, as you said. So, my role is basically on the websites that have and how the customers interact with it and what’s their pain points and stuff. So, I do a lot of A/B tests, and also surveys, interviews, get heat maps, and all. And before that, I had different experiences in research.

Lenny: 00:01:36

It’s very cool. Very cool. So, no pressure for the expectation that you got to be funny, right? Because I’m not, so [laugh] we’ll see where that goes. And, you know, for our listeners, some of you might remember who attended IIEX previously, that for a few years, particularly in the Atlanta event, that Second City was a sponsor.

Viket: 00:02:30

So, after Covid, and basically I was looking for a new hobby, a way to be social, but also kind of improve on something that I—a skill that I have. And for my role at Mars, I do a lot of customer interviews, so I thought improv sounded like a good option. And they had a [taster 00:02:45] class in the place that I take courses, just, like, a two-hour [place 00:02:50], two hour to learn how it looks like. And I did it and I was like, “Yep, I’m doing it.” I was hooked right away.

at’s a neat way to say it:: 00:03:32

a different muscle. So, tie the two threads together. What—obviously see the fun and, you know, and all of that, and of course during Covid, [finding 00:03:40] [laugh] something else to do, but what are the benefits you can see in your day job with research? How are you translating some of those things that are adding more impact and value?

Viket: 00:03:50

Yeah. So, [unintelligible 00:03:51] in interviews, for example. I want—I started improv as a way of active listening. So, when I do the improv, you need to be very active listening, you need to really be able to act on the spot, and this is a really, really good skill when you do the research. So, that’s how it all started for me, and then I found different similarities between them.

Lenny: 00:05:17

So, quirky and weird in comedy. What? Come on now. No. The [laugh]—the—so listening to you, I’ve never thought about it until now, so we’re freewheeling here, guys, is an engagement mechanism, right, is a way to connect with the people that you’re talking with, right, whether you’re on stage doing a research presentation on results, or on stage, trying to get people to laugh.

Viket: 00:06:04

I think that, for research, depending on what research you’re [laugh] doing, so if you’re looking at a customer research interview, yes, definitely. I will say in surveys or A/B tests, it’s different methods that I use. However, when I want to present the results to my own—like, my stakeholders within the company, then yes, I completely agree that I use [unintelligible 00:06:23] skills that I have to make my key messages in my research more understandable for my stakeholders, and so the more engaged they feel, the more they ask questions or engage with me, I understand that, “Oh, okay. My research is getting [laugh] through them.”

Lenny: 00:06:42

Yeah, I’m sure. Have you had, within Mars, people say, “Oh, we really want Viket to present these results because she’s going to make it more engaging than boring old me could do.” Has that happened?

Viket: 00:06:54

I’m the only researcher in our D2C team in Europe right now, so it’s kind of already [laugh] my job. However, when we do now office parties or office events, I’m always nominated as the host, which I love [laugh].

Lenny: 00:07:08

[laugh]. So, that doesn’t get annoying? Because I’ve often thought with watching comedians, to think, man, I wonder if they just get really annoyed with people that come up and, you know, “Tell me a joke; make me laugh,” and that kind of that on-demand process. But it sounds like no, you actually—it’s natural and you like it.

Viket: 00:07:27

I don’t like, “Tell me a joke,” because I don’t have that many jokes. Standup is new to me. But especially improv is something I do at least once or twice a week now. So, being on stage, just being on the—like, being quirky and [laugh] spontaneous is something that comes up easy. But jokes I don’t have. Also be jokes, the problem—sorry, I’m [laugh] changing the subject, but the problem with, “Tell me a joke,” is a lot of times jokes are not funny, initially. You need to warm up to the laughing. So, when somebody says, “Tell a joke,” even if it’s the best joke, it’s just not going to get the same reaction. So, that I don’t [laugh] [unintelligible 00:07:58].

is, but I’m dying to know:: 00:08:00

favorite comedians, inspiration for you?

Viket: 00:08:10

This is hard. I did went to Jack Whitehall the other day. Last week he was here. He’s not my favorite, but I think he’s a fun guy. Ohh, I can’t decide right now. I’m going to give an unorthodox answer; the reason that I get into comedy.

Lenny: 00:09:00

Okay. All right. Good answer. The—well, not that there’s a bad answer, but for what it’s worth, this might give you some glimpse into my own personal insanity. I would say Robin Williams or George Carlin.

Viket: 00:09:57

Sure. So, my presentation in IIEX was about the overlaps between research and comedy, and I kind of started explaining [unintelligible 00:10:05] key standup terms in a way that the researcher would understand, just to show the overlaps. Also warm people up [unintelligible 00:10:12] to, like, teach people about [unintelligible 00:10:13] standup. And so, setup of a joke is basically the foundation where you have the assumption of the joke. So, that’s kind of the hypothesis. In research term, you will say, hypothesis is where you have the assumption.

Lenny: 00:11:12

So, when you’re presenting findings, I assume that you kind of think about I’m going to present in this way to be able to, you know, the structure?

Viket: 00:11:57

Do you mean how, by using comedy?

Lenny: 00:12:00

Comedy and/or improv. Yes, either one.

Viket: 00:12:03

My advice to researchers would be one, don’t limit yourself to many things. So, one thing I realized in how improv helped me is being more creative in research. I feel like a lot of times, what blocks creativity in the first place is that we don’t believe—we are so self-critical of ourself that when we have an idea or innovation idea, we kind of easily, “Ah, this is not great,” so we don’t really let it out. Whereas an improv is just whatever comes to your mind—we learn to whatever comes to my mind, this is a good one. Let’s try it out.

Lenny: 00:13:31

I love that. And it makes me think. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the role of intuition and creativity. And, you know, kind of there’s really nebulous characteristics that we don’t talk a lot about within the research space where everything, data, data, data, data. But to get to implications, it does take some level of intuition. It takes, you know, this combination of experience and critical thinking, combined with that nebulous connection that goes off in our brains—or at least in mine.

Viket: 00:14:42

Yeah. I think is quite important. And to add to what you said, we live in a world where data and information is so much of what—the quality is a question, but we have a lot of information. We get hundreds [laugh] of emails all the time, so it’s just having an insight it is important, but if people can’t remember it, if people can’t process what you’re saying, it’s not going to be as impactful as you think. And I think intuition and having this as a creative way to engage with the people that you’re talking to, it goes a long way to do it.

Lenny: 00:15:17

Okay, now on the flip side, right, then we’re also prone to biases, right? So, tips that you’ve learned in trying to recognize the bias, stay away from it, limit it as best you can, while also engaging in more this freewheeling, you know, intuitive, creative process.

Viket: 00:15:36

Yeah. I mean, in a way, I don’t even know if they are… definitely being creative, I don’t know if that means you have more biases, per se. I think it even possibly makes you be aware [laugh] of everyth—like, more holistically about what’s happening. But I would say for me, with my—with the biases, comedy also reminded me how sample is important. So, when you do study—like, when you have a standup show, same jokes can work very well in one audience, so if I go on the stage with a Dutch audience, I can make a Dutch joke better. Or being a short woman in the Netherlands is my go-to. So, that kind of jokes work well.

Lenny: 00:17:50

That is a really, really cool point and I’m glad you brought that up. I am… probably our listeners are sick of me always harping on this, but we have—fundamentally we have an engagement problem within the market research industry. When it comes to, you know, respondents, we suck [laugh]. We don’t make it fun, we don’t give any reasons for people to participate, it’s not an engaging experience, and we have to think about that more from a study design perspective. So, I love that point of let’s ease people into it, right? Now, obviously, we can’t give them a few drinks. I guess maybe you could in a focus group in Amsterdam, that maybe [laugh]—

Viket: 00:19:23

Yeah. So, we try to [unintelligible 00:19:25] [laugh]—and also in UX side, so I do a lot of the UX as a side of it—I also, for example, realized two more strategies in comedy that is exactly the same in customer behavior that is known. So, there’s something called, for example, “Rule of three.” Have you heard of that?

Lenny: 00:20:43

Wow, that is cool. And it also makes me think, I tend to be repetitive, and I’ll say the same thing multiple times, and maybe I’m just—you know, see I’m doing the rule of three, guys. I’m not just repeating myself for the sake of repeating myself. It’s that intuitive knowledge. No, that’s actually really fascinating and I hadn’t thought it about that way before, but that makes an awful lot of sense, thinking about websites that I, you know, enjoy, and particularly those from a sales standpoint, from conversion.

Viket: 00:21:43

This idea is in the rule of three, or in general?

Lenny: 00:21:46

The rule three specifically, but in general. Your approach in general?

Viket: 00:21:51

I never thought about the rule of three, but my approach specifically, yeah because this was the first—so I did academic research before, but that was my first commercial job and working in a very innovative place. And I was one of the first. Like, the company was quite new when I was there, so being part of that creative process of [we 00:22:09] trying to push the limits of what we’re doing and how their methodology works, it was like a really nice way to join in. So, I already [unintelligible 00:22:17] to market research from out-of-the-box, like, a new and behavioral approach to it. So, I think my standards for research has changed a lot.

Lenny: 00:22:49

All right, so now thinking about your daily job now at Mars. You know, Mars, very large company, right? Has there been an openness within the organization to embrace some of these concepts? Are you finding traction overall among your peers or colleagues and thinking, “Wow, yeah, this really, this helps make a difference in how we do our jobs.”

Viket: 00:23:10

Yeah. I mean, if we’re talking about innovative research, yes. So, D2C team in Europe is quite new to start with. We’re kind of like almost like a startup on top of that big company. So, we’re very agile, very much, let’s try it and see what happens. Let’s see what we can do better, and how we can do it, trying to find quick and good ways to improve our performance.

Lenny: 00:23:59

Well, and it’s got to be an easy audience. I mean, you’re dealing with, you know, ulti—puppies and kittens, right? I mean, so [laugh] your audience is already kind of softened up.

Viket: 00:24:09

We call our customers pet parents because people see their pets as a kid, which is really cool. And sometimes I run A/B tests about, like, different dog and dog pictures, and I’m like, wow, this is a job that I [laugh] love. I can come in and there are dogs in the office, which is also amazing.

Lenny: 00:24:35

You’re like the aunt that takes the kids for the weekend, but then you get to give them back. So.

Viket: 00:24:39

I’m the obsessed aunt, yeah [laugh].

Lenny: 00:24:43

[laugh]. Got it. But when the time comes to settle down and be a pet parent and have that commitment, what do you think? What would be—dog? Cat? Where would you go?

Viket: 00:24:55

I want them all. But I’ll start with a dog. And for me the main role—like, main thing is, like, rescue dog. At the moment, just to clarify, so the reason I don’t have a pet right now, I have hay fever and I live by the park. So, if I get a dog, I don’t want to not take them out, so I’m trying to manage my hay fever. So, I’m going to start with a dog when my hay fever is better. And rescue, ideally. I would love a big dog, but I don’t have space [laugh] in Amsterdam. So, small to medium dog.

Lenny: 00:25:25

All right. Well, you know, so we00 if you come to the US, we have a ten-acre farm, and so we have two dogs and two cats and chickens that are coming here soon. So, you can come and play with our big dogs. Open invitation.

Viket: 00:26:05

So, to start answering your question, one of the things that I liked the most and I’m most ambitious in is not necessarily doing the research, but combining different insights we get from different teams and presenting to the non-research people in the teams. So, this is my—short-term—one of my biggest passions. And [unintelligible 00:26:24] as always, I do love being on stage, and either for work or for comedy, and I would like, in the long-term, in five years’ time, to be kind of like the public speaker of the team. So, if there’s any event going on, I want to be the person who is up there and talking about it, and I want to be—yeah, I think what that means is that, we’ll see what happens, but I would like to be in a place where I am trying to inspire people, when whatever we’re trying to inspire [laugh] in them for.

Lenny: 00:26:57

Well, I think that it’s probably safe to say that you’ll be one of our go-to people for IIEX Europe, so—

Viket: 00:27:18

It was funny, in the IIEX also, I made people—it was 9 a.m. on the second day, and I made people actually get up and shake their body [unintelligible 00:27:24] [laugh] I was like [unintelligible 00:27:26]. It took [unintelligible 00:27:27]. It was a very risky choice for the IIEX, I think, but I think it paid off. So.

Lenny: 00:27:33

Good. So, you did take the bullet? [laugh].

Viket: 00:27:37

[crosstalk 00:27:36] when you make everyone get up and, like, make funny movements and then shake their body to wake up.

Lenny: 00:27:42

Okay. Yeah, definitely that’s necessary. Especially on the second day, with people being out the night before, yeah, that’s going to be important. What was your favorite part of IIEX Europe? Just, what stood out out for you?

Viket: 00:27:55

Well, actually seeing the old colleagues. As you said, the Veylinx was there, so it was really good. And also taking some time off from my daytime job to really pause and listen to inspiring talks and actually get inspired and reflect was really nice. So, it kind of gave me a place to see, ah, what we can be doing better with our team and things like that. So, that was really cool to see as well.

Lenny: 00:28:18

Was there a session that jumped out at you, that you’re like, “Man, that I’m glad I came, just for that.”

Viket: 00:28:23

I can’t say [just 00:28:23] can I? [unintelligible 00:28:25] three [laugh]? Can I [crosstalk 00:28:26]—

Lenny: 00:28:28

You could do the rule of three? Yes.

Viket: 00:28:32

I loved the [unintelligible 00:28:34], if I’m not saying her name wrong. She talked about the processes that they use and how they action on customer feedback. And [unintelligible 00:28:43]. That was very cool to see. That was very methodological and throughout.

Lenny: 00:29:27

Was there a tool or technique that you saw that you thought, “Wow. Okay. Now, this really has broad applications, can make my job easier or more impactful?”

Viket: 00:29:40

I can’t remember the technique’s specific name, but with [unintelligible 00:29:43] slice there was one things about [laugh] I took notes about, one prioritization process that they used. That seems very cool and we’re already talking with the team to kind of make that prioritization process better as well. So, that was very cool to see.

introduced a drinking game:: 00:30:00

every time that came up, you had to take a drink. So, and here’s my point asking that question for you, right? We think we’re—to having this conversation about understand humans and engagement and, you know, that whole component, but yet, now we have a whole new tool set that’s not part of the equation. It is an algorithm that may mimic those things, try to duplicate those things. So, I’m just interested in your opinion on that.

Viket: 00:30:37

About general—yeah in research?

Lenny: 00:30:43

Yes. Or in general, you know? What do you think that means for us, as researchers, if we’ve established that we need to focus more on engagement, and you know, the rule of three, and all those things that—those human connection components that improv and comedy helped drive, yet, maybe relying more and more on tools that seem human but are not in terms of how the outputs that they come that they produce?

Viket: 00:31:11

I’m going to give the political answer. I’m excited, but also terrified. I think there’s a lot of applications and it can even help with creativity. It can, like, [unintelligible 00:31:19] [laugh] to look into different things and get answers to things that you wouldn’t have the answer to easily before and push your limits and make things faster and things like that. So, I think it is useful in research and it cannot be denied.

Lenny: 00:32:10

I’m right there with you. I think that’s a reasonable position. I’m glad I asked the question. I think that we as an industry have to say that, like, the pragmatic benefits from an efficiency standpoint, yeah, duh, right? Processing verbatims, you know, all of those things, of course. But, you know, it’s a little scary.

Viket: 00:33:29

Yeah, I mean, comedy in my hobby [unintelligible 00:33:30], I’m doing more on stage [laugh]. I already have shows coming up, which I’m excited, especially on improv side. I’m looking forward to it. And at works, I already mentioned kind of the part about combining insights. And kind of what I’m really fascinated is, like, we get in [unintelligible 00:33:48] the D2C, in e-commerce world, basically.

Lenny: 00:34:29

Cool. Very cool. And just to give us a little more insight into you in your copious amount of spare time, when you’re not on stage and enjoying those things, what are you kind of obsessed with right now, outside of comedy and improv? What’s the thing that you spend a lot of time just doing this for relaxation?

Viket: 00:34:48

I have a quirky thing again, I guess. So, I like abstract painting, but I have a specific twist to it. I love painting with Doritos.

Lenny: 00:34:59

With Doritos? All right [laugh].

Viket: 00:35:03

I literally, like, crush them and stick on the paint because crushing is really fun and they don’t go bad in the paint. And just crushing them and mixing with different paints and it gives a really good texture and it’s just really fun to do. So, I do a lot of—I, like, textures in painting, and yeah, Doritos are my go-to textures [laugh].

Lenny: 00:35:24

Right. Now, Nacho Cheese or Cool Ranch or what flavor Doritos?

Viket: 00:35:29

I don’t think that matters [laugh].

Lenny: 00:35:36

Okay, so—and only Doritos? Not any other type of tortilla chip?

Viket: 00:35:41

No, I do with other things like toilet paper is really good to put on for textures. I do, even like coffee beans or Tumeric is a good colors. I use whatever I can find. But Doritos has been a signature [laugh].

Lenny: 00:35:55

All right. And so, you get to snack while you’re painting. I mean, I see that. That’s wonderful. All right. I am not going to share that with my kids as they do their own. Sorry, I don’t want to deal with the mess, I can imagine. So, how can our listeners reach out to you? Where can they find you?

Viket: 00:36:12

LinkedIn will be the easiest. Viket Benzesin is my name. They can find me there. And my work email is viket.benzesin.peres@effem.com. So, that’s also a [unintelligible 00:36:25] would be good. But I will say LinkedIn would be the best way.

Lenny: 00:36:28

Okay. Now, what about if they’re in Amsterdam and they want to catch a show?

Viket: 00:36:32

Oh. There’s a lot in English [unintelligible 00:36:33] [laugh]. There’s actually even, like, a group. I can’t remember right now. But Boom Chicago is my favorite place. It’s central Amsterdam. Very professional people. They do incredible improv. That’s why I would suggest Boom Chicago.

Lenny: 00:36:47

Okay. Is there anything that you wish I’d asked that I didn’t?

Viket: 00:36:52

I can’t really think of on top of my head right now [laugh].

Lenny: 00:36:55

Okay. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for presenting at IIEX Europe. That’s a great topic. Thank you for joining us today on the podcast and for a really stimulating and great conversation. I think this is really good stuff. So, thank you, Viket.

Viket: 00:37:09

Thanks. Thanks for having me.